Non-Oriental monk origin...

[Klaus]

Hi, y'all!

I just wrote (actually, I wrote a long while back and just posted) a Dragon's Breath article over at www.fierydragon.com detailing the origin of the monk tradition in Fiery Dragon's world of Karathis. Since Karathis has no "Asian" regions, I wanted to root the monk in the existing history of the setting and I replaced the asian weapons with fantasy ones.

I was curious on opinions!

 

[Desdichado]

That's a pretty interesting take on how monks could exist in a "non-Oriental" setting. I don't know what dragons have to do with monks, though -- that's the only thing I'm not getting. In fact, if anything, that seems to be a throwback to the association of Oriental martial artists and dragons.

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

You only need to look at the old manual I.33 to find european fighting monks.

Also, don't assume europeans didn't know hand-to-hand techniques enough to get by. They just prefered to use weapons that say, killed their opponents instead of doing nasty things to their legs.

European fighting monks existed. Don't know about leaping thirty feet backwards into trees - but its quite possible to have a medieval setting with a monk that uses a quarterstaff and isn't asian . Friar Tuck my good man! Perhaps a bit more religious than what your after, but still.

I also dislike dragons having stuff to do with monks. How many dragons can there be that flutter about, willing to be modelled?

 

[Klaus]

That's a pretty interesting take on how monks could exist in a "non-Oriental" setting. I don't know what dragons have to do with monks, though -- that's the only thing I'm not getting. In fact, if anything, that seems to be a throwback to the association of Oriental martial artists and dragons.

In real life, oriental martial arts (specifically kung fu) developed from the observation of animals and the imitation of their fighting techniques. The best-known example is the Nine Animals school of kung fu (tiger, monkey, crane, praying mantis...).

In a world where dragons exist, observation and study of their fighting prowess isn't specially hard. That also explains why monastic dragons (and monks) have Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill.

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

Again, how is it not so hard? Knowledge (Arcana) is not specifically knowledge of dragons - it may lead some knowledge from books. No book I know gives truly proper instruction; there's always some interpretation.

Dragons aren't 'that hard' to go and study? They let you into their lairs to be gawked at, their movements poorly imitated and their every move commented on?

Sorry. I'm not trying to be nasty. It's just that dragons really aren't as common as monkeys or cranes or what have you.

 

[Sejs]

In my homebrew campaign setting: Shepherds.

 

[Desdichado]

In real life, oriental martial arts (specifically kung fu) developed from the observation of animals and the imitation of their fighting techniques. The best-known example is the Nine Animals school of kung fu (tiger, monkey, crane, praying mantis...).

Oh, no doubt. But, kung fu is the exception there; no other type of martial arts that I'm aware of are based on mimicking animal moves.

In a world where dragons exist, observation and study of their fighting prowess isn't specially hard. That also explains why monastic dragons (and monks) have Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill.

No, it's not hard, but there's nothing particularly dragon-like about the monks that I can see, unless you specifically insert it via campaign specific flavor. And maybe that's your point, which I'm missing. And, like Arrgh! Mark! said, Knowledge (arcana) doesn't have to have a draconic source.

 

[Desdichado]

Also, don't assume europeans didn't know hand-to-hand techniques enough to get by. They just prefered to use weapons that say, killed their opponents instead of doing nasty things to their legs.

Well, so did the Chinese and the Japanese, or what have you. The reason a tradition of unarmed combat developed so strongly amongst them was that large classes of people were prohibited from owning weapons, and came up with a replacement fighting strategy to preserve themselves from bandits and the like. That's the whole deal with monks not really using any traditional martial weapons, and instead utilizing a lot of simple weapons/farm implements, etc. The cultures just developed differently to where in Asia such folks were kinda grass-roots folk heroes.

That said, the D&D monk class is clearly modeled on the classic "Asian monk" model. European monks had too much clearly associated religious background to work, and the European pugilist type tradition just doesn't have the same exotic mystique to the majority of the target audience of D&D.

EDIT: Actually, a case could be made for the paladin representing the classic European martial monk class, such as the Templars or somesuch. But they weren't famous for their unarmed fighting style.

 

[Chun-tzu]

I really liked the article. To be fair, I'm coming from a "what cool stuff can I import into my campaign" perspective, and my campaign's set in the Realms, where there clearly is an Asian region. So, in terms of the crunch, I would definitely use one of these draconic weapons for a dragon-themed PC, like a martial artist, Sorcerer, or Dragon Disciple. Kudos, Klaus.

Can dragons really replace the Asian influence in the D&D Monk? I'm not sure (and as I said, that doesn't concern me terribly), but it seems as good an explanation as any to me. The article states that the fighting styles were "inspired" by watching dragons. Even with dragons being rare, I don't have a problem with that. All it takes is ONE person watching ONE battle betweem dragons (likely from a distance) for this idea to work, as long as it's the right person. When you think about it, isn't this the role dragons are supposed to play? As powerful, majestic creatures of legend, even a simple sighting can potentially have a profound effect on "lesser beings."

I don't think keeping a dragon association with a non-Oriental monk is necessarily a bad thing. We the players can't help associate martial arts with dragons. As for the characters, I would see the dragon/Western monk connection as a case of convergent thinking, rather than "leakage" from the real world. That is, there's still a link between martial arts and dragons here, but it came from a completely different direction (i.e., not from Asian movies, mythology, and icons).

 

[Tonguez]

One irony that everyone seems to have overlooked is that the tradition of the Western Monk evolved from Montheistic Christianity which was significantly responsible for the decline and 'loss' of the earlier 'pagan' martial arts traditions.

There is however nothing to say that if left in a polytheisitic system (DnD default) the Celtic 'Fianna' (Red Branch) would not have developed into a monastic-like order. The Fianna practiced unarmed CQ combat and a number of techniques that could be modeled by the Monk class. There is some suggestion that the Vikings had developed a combat system based upon Runes