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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tormyr" data-source="post: 6374451" data-attributes="member: 6776887">One thing I have not seen mentioned so far is that these creatures all have a CR value.  If they have some sort of devastating ability, they are nerfed somewhere else compared to other creatures of a similar CR.  An obvious example is an NPC wizard.  They have less than half the hit points of a fighter of a similar CR to balance out their game changing spells.  The mage in the basic DMG  is a CR6 creature.  He has fireball, greater invisibility, ice storm and cone of cold, but a level 6 party should be able to deal with him without too much trouble.  An even higher level party should be able to take care of him and his friends in a straightforward manner.At higher levels, scarier enemy abilities become available, but dealing with different adversities is what makes the game interesting from encounter to encounter. If a character is poisoned/stunned/unconscious, someone can help them. If a character dies/gets banished due to a cheap shot, the DM can easily make a side quest to bring that person back.  And saving a dead/banished character can be a story unto itself.No character should be able to handle everything.  Each class has their saves where they shine and those where they should be scared %^&!less.  It is the job of those who made the save to carry those who did not until they recover.A rough guide for DC values is 8 + primary ability modifier + proficiency.  In general most (not all) creatures stay within the 20 abiliity range.  So a CR 20 creature will have a save DC of 8 + 5 + 6 = 19.  A level 20 PC proficient in the save and maxed out on the primary stat will have a +11 modifier.  They need to roll an 8 to save.  They will make it about 2/3 of the time.  Even a non-proficient level 1 character will make it about 10% of the time.  Looking at how the saves scale, the proficient character who has a similar primary ability modifier and proficiency bonus to the enemy will generally always have to roll an 8 or better to save.  This is roughly true from level 1 to 20.  The non proficient character will steadily get worse.  They will go from needing a 13 to needing a 19.  I don't have a problem with that.  They are focusing on getting better elsewhere as they level up, and they are losing ground to those enemies that are specializing in improving their DC stats.  If the player wants to improve the save bonuses, there are several in game ways to do this apart from giving a free bonus to saves.  One of the core parts of 5e is shining in one area while having a flaw in another.  If players wants to improve their saves, they need to sacrifice advancement somewhere else.</blockquote>

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