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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6625866" data-attributes="member: 6677017">We created some 14th level characters for an adventure. I have a hill dwarf battlemaster dual wielding a dwarven thrower (yay for the perfect random magic item!), while a fellow player has a human champion dual wielding longswords (including a dancing sword). We both chose to dual-wield for purposes of character concept. (We also have a cleric and a paladin in the group.) We only had one fight so far, but it was extremely tough. I must admit, despite the claims (that I partly agree with*) that battlemaster is more powerful than champion, I was looking longingly at that +1 AC and +5 (total) initiative her character had. And rationing out my combat superiority dice (I used all of them) was fun, but that expanded crit range (which came up once or twice) also looked pretty nice. There is also a feeling that once I have spent my dice, I'm now an inferior combatant for the rest of the fight. I'm sure I did out-damage her, but that is as much or more because I was a dwarf standing back and throwing a dwarven thrower with a +3 to hit and an extra 1d8+3 to damage, verses her swinging a couple longswords with no to hit or damage bonus. In a friend's upcoming longer running campaign, I'm planning on playing a human (standard version) champion fighter with no feats--right out of the basic rules, even though the rest of the players will likely be using the PHB. I'm pretty excited about going the super athletic, ability scores through the roof route. And since it's 5e, I plan to use plenty of shoving and grappling and jumping and other such activities that are available to anyone, just relying on my multiple attacks and excellent physical capabilities to excel at them.* Except in certain situations (high level with Great Weapon Master primarily), battlemaster out-damages champion on average, but it is dependent on intelligent use of your features and the number of rounds of combat you have between short rests. Champion also gets an "invisible" damage bonus via an initiative bonus. They could have perhaps given champion something else to make them more powerful, but the divide isn't that great as it is sometimes portrayed as being. After I played with math and went through a long thread on it months ago, I came to the conclusion that you don't have to feel gimped by choosing a champion over a battlemaster.</blockquote>

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