Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Non-spell area effects vs. total cover
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Harzel" data-source="post: 7573602" data-attributes="member: 6857506"><p>I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I'll give it a shot. I think (maybe) you are saying that the banshee's wail is not an AE (spherical or not). And your second sentence is supposed to explain why. Now, sorry for the upcoming pedantry, but really I am just trying to sort this out in a way that will allow me to reply usefully. Also, it may sound condescending; please just chalk that up to my inability to phrase it more gracefully. I appreciate you engaging in the thread; I'm not trying to insult you.</p><p></p><p>The way you have phrased that second sentence, it is a tautology, so it's not very helpful in that form. Does this rephrasing reflect your intent?<p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>The description of Wail doesn't define a spherical entity; it just sets out a criterion for selecting the creatures affected.</em></p><p></p><p>Assuming that I've at least gotten close, I think my main point in response is this: whether an effect is an AE is solely a matter of the mechanics; the fiction/fluff does not matter. In particular, for an effect to be an AE, the fiction does not need to include a physical manifestation of the shape of the area. AFAIK, the only things necessary for an effect to be an AE are a) it can affect multiple targets; and b) the criteria for valid targets includes their location; and (probably) c) the set of acceptable locations for targets forms a contiguous region, for some reasonable definition of contiguous that I don't even want to try to think about. Not that anyone would even think about that last bit unless some unholy combination of a rules lawyer and a mathematician got involved.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, to get back to the point that I am guessing is where our thinking diverges - for many AEs, the fiction <em>does</em> specify a physical manifestation, but that is not necessary. For example:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is most certainly an AE spell. And "Each creature in a 30-foot cone" is a location-based criterion for the creatures affected in exactly the same way that "All creatures within 30 feet of her" is for Wail. Wail doesn't have to mention the shape of its area because spheres are so easy to describe, but "everything within 30 ft. of a point" is literally the definition of a 30 ft. radius sphere.* Note that you <em>could</em> define the criterion for creatures affected by Fear without mentioning the word 'cone' - it would just be a lot more complicated.</p><p></p><p>So as far as I can see Wail is certainly an AE, and it happens to be spherical. If you still want to contend that Wail is not an AE, I suggest either showing me why it does not fit my definition, or telling me why my definition is wrong.</p><p></p><p>Other comments:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess it's up for interpretation, but I certainly never got the idea that <em>fireball </em>was at all slow-moving.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The spirit of Jeremy Crawford appears and intones, "If thing X was supposed to do Y, its description would say so."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd only do that if I knew that the players were well aware it worked that way.</p><p></p><p>Finally, maybe the point of my OP got a little bit buried in my babbling. My intent was to pose the following questions:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Is there a general rule that I have overlooked that answers for non-spell area effects the question(s) that the spell AE rule that I quoted answers for spells?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If not, is it reasonable to conclude that non-spell AEs are supposed to follow the rule (that I quoted) for spell AEs?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">And even if we can't decide that it is RAI for the non-spell AEs to follow the spell AE rule, is that a plausible/acceptable/good (your choice) way to adjudicate them?</li> </ol><p></p><p>Any thoughts on those?</p><p></p><p></p><p>* Ok, ok. Technically that is the definition of a closed ball and the sphere is its surface, but that is not a nicety that D&D has ever observed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harzel, post: 7573602, member: 6857506"] I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I'll give it a shot. I think (maybe) you are saying that the banshee's wail is not an AE (spherical or not). And your second sentence is supposed to explain why. Now, sorry for the upcoming pedantry, but really I am just trying to sort this out in a way that will allow me to reply usefully. Also, it may sound condescending; please just chalk that up to my inability to phrase it more gracefully. I appreciate you engaging in the thread; I'm not trying to insult you. The way you have phrased that second sentence, it is a tautology, so it's not very helpful in that form. Does this rephrasing reflect your intent?[INDENT][I]The description of Wail doesn't define a spherical entity; it just sets out a criterion for selecting the creatures affected.[/I][/INDENT] Assuming that I've at least gotten close, I think my main point in response is this: whether an effect is an AE is solely a matter of the mechanics; the fiction/fluff does not matter. In particular, for an effect to be an AE, the fiction does not need to include a physical manifestation of the shape of the area. AFAIK, the only things necessary for an effect to be an AE are a) it can affect multiple targets; and b) the criteria for valid targets includes their location; and (probably) c) the set of acceptable locations for targets forms a contiguous region, for some reasonable definition of contiguous that I don't even want to try to think about. Not that anyone would even think about that last bit unless some unholy combination of a rules lawyer and a mathematician got involved. Anyway, to get back to the point that I am guessing is where our thinking diverges - for many AEs, the fiction [I]does[/I] specify a physical manifestation, but that is not necessary. For example: This is most certainly an AE spell. And "Each creature in a 30-foot cone" is a location-based criterion for the creatures affected in exactly the same way that "All creatures within 30 feet of her" is for Wail. Wail doesn't have to mention the shape of its area because spheres are so easy to describe, but "everything within 30 ft. of a point" is literally the definition of a 30 ft. radius sphere.* Note that you [I]could[/I] define the criterion for creatures affected by Fear without mentioning the word 'cone' - it would just be a lot more complicated. So as far as I can see Wail is certainly an AE, and it happens to be spherical. If you still want to contend that Wail is not an AE, I suggest either showing me why it does not fit my definition, or telling me why my definition is wrong. Other comments: I guess it's up for interpretation, but I certainly never got the idea that [I]fireball [/I]was at all slow-moving. The spirit of Jeremy Crawford appears and intones, "If thing X was supposed to do Y, its description would say so." I'd only do that if I knew that the players were well aware it worked that way. Finally, maybe the point of my OP got a little bit buried in my babbling. My intent was to pose the following questions: [LIST=1] [*]Is there a general rule that I have overlooked that answers for non-spell area effects the question(s) that the spell AE rule that I quoted answers for spells? [*]If not, is it reasonable to conclude that non-spell AEs are supposed to follow the rule (that I quoted) for spell AEs? [*]And even if we can't decide that it is RAI for the non-spell AEs to follow the spell AE rule, is that a plausible/acceptable/good (your choice) way to adjudicate them? [/LIST] Any thoughts on those? * Ok, ok. Technically that is the definition of a closed ball and the sphere is its surface, but that is not a nicety that D&D has ever observed. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Non-spell area effects vs. total cover
Top