Non-Vancian System Inspired by B9S

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Maximum Spell Power Pool

Level	Brd	Clr/Drd/Wiz	Pal/Rgr		Sor
1	1	1		--		3
2	1	2		--		4
3	1	2		--		5
4	2	3		0		6
5	2	4		0		8
6	3	5		1		9
7	4	6		1		12
8	4	7		1		12
9	5	8		1		15
10	6	9		2		16
11	6	10		2		18
12	7	11		3		20
13	8	12		3		22
14	8	13		3		24
15	9	14		4		26
16	10	15		4		28
17	10	16		4		30
18	12	18		4		32
19	18	27		8		36
20	24	36		12		54

[Anyone able to teach me how to do a table?] - Many thanks to Lackhand!

Ability Bonus: The ability modifier appropriate to the caster type is added directly to the caster’s Maximum Spell Power pool, but the added bonus (if any) cannot exceed the caster level. Example: A 4th level Paladin with an 18 Wisdom [+4] may add 2 points of his bonus (since his caster level equals half his Paladin level) to his Maximum Spell Power Pool.
Bard: Regain 1 Spell Power point with each use of Bardic Music (the normal effects of the use of Bardic Music still apply). Bards may not regain more Spell Power than their Maximum Spell Power Pool.
Divine Casters: Granted Spell Power equal to EL of defeated challenges [the guidelines for assigning an EL to non-combat encounters should be used under this system] that further the goals of the caster’s deity or faith. Granted Spell Power may not be used to cast Domain spells. Divine casters may not be granted more Spell Power than their Maximum Spell Power Pool.
Cleric: In addition to granted Spell Power, clerics may pray once per day at their chosen time to gain an amount of Spell Power points equal to half their Cleric level (minimum of 1) that may only be used to cast Domain spells.
Sorcerer: Refresh Maximum Spell Power Pool with 5 minutes of meditation.
Wizard: Refresh Maximum Spell Power Pool with 5 minutes of study. Specialist Wizards gain a bonus Spell Power points equal to half their Wizard level (minimum of 1) each time they refresh that may only be used to cast spells from their school of specialization.
Cost: Each spell cast costs a number of points of Spell Power as the modified level of the spell (zero level spells cost ½ of a point). Spells with a duration greater than Instantaneous must be maintained with Spell Power. While active, a spell reduces the caster’s Maximum Spell Power Pool by the modified level of the spell. Domain spells with a duration do not reduce a Cleric’s Maximum Spell Power Pool.


Questions? Comments? Any Jack Vance fans want to string me up?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Reserved for FAQ

Reserved for FAQ

 

[Lackhand]

If you enclose your tables with [ c o d e ] and [ / c o d e ] tags (remove the spaces first!) then the stuff between will appear preformatted:

 	Maximum Spell Power Pool
Level	Brd	Clr/Drd/Wiz	Pal/Rgr	Sor
1	1	1		--	3
2	1	2		--	4
3	1	2		--	5
4	2	3		0	6
5	2	4		0	8
6	3	5		1	9
7	4	6		1	12
8	4	7		1	12
9	5	8		1	15
10	6	9		2	16
11	6	10		2	18
12	7	11		3	20
13	8	12		3	22
14	8	13		3	24
15	9	14		4	26
16	10	15		4	28
17	10	16		4	30
18	12	18		4	32
19	18	27		8	36
20	24	36		12	54

So, as for the number of points allotted: Giving strictly the bonus number of spells = level seems a bit overpowering -- you fixed it for the first level wizard, but not the second level one (who gets more out of this) -- I'd cap the bonus at half level (thus, one-quarter level for paladins).

I like this in general, but I'd have to devote more thought to how this actually played out in terms of spells per combat.

I assume that the reason you must maintain spells with durations > instantaneous is to prevent free buffs?

Note that this gives the wizard an enormous power boost -- how many spells do they prepare at each level (which I assume they can now cast spontaneously?)?

Cool beans!

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

So, as for the number of points allotted: Giving strictly the bonus number of spells = level seems a bit overpowering -- you fixed it for the first level wizard, but not the second level one (who gets more out of this) -- I'd cap the bonus at half level (thus, one-quarter level for paladins).

Are you referring to the bonus to the Maximum Spell Power Pool (MSPP) from having a high stat? I could see that being limited by 1/2 caster level. I left the limit at caster level because of the reduced returns as your stat bonus climbs.

I like this in general, but I'd have to devote more thought to how this actually played out in terms of spells per combat.

Yes. This is totally untested. I'm still debating whether I want to try this in my new campaign.

I assume that the reason you must maintain spells with durations > instantaneous is to prevent free buffs?

Exactly.

Note that this gives the wizard an enormous power boost -- how many spells do they prepare at each level (which I assume they can now cast spontaneously?)?

A wizard must still prepare spells. It takes him 5 minutes of study to refresh his MSPP at which time he must choose spells to prepare which cost in total no more than his current MSPP.

Cool beans!

Thanks!

 

[Sadrik]

I made something very similar last year. It got eaten by the Enworld crash but it had 3 places for spell points to go. Available, used and spent available was what you have available to spend on your spells. Used was spell points being spent to maintain spells (after done being used they moved to spent) and spent were spell points that needed to be recovered.

My use for the system was to make it vaible for casters to be useful in more than 4 encounters a day (similar to other non-spellcaster classes). And give them a little flexability. So, I only gave them enough spell points to be useful in 1 encounter. (a wizard gets 1 at 1st and 20 at 20th.) Their stat added only a maximum equal to their spell points. So a 1st level wizard can have 2 spell points and a second has 4 (both assume they have a positive int score).

0 level spells were a big quandry. I finally decided that they could do any number of 0 level spells. However I flirted with a system where spells cost 1+ the spell level (1-10). Your .5 is an acceptable remedy. It really makes them weak though and that is why I went with unlimited. Does it really hurt if a caster can acid splash for 1d3 damage whenever they want? I dont think so.

There are several spells that can cause problems by being able to cast them nearly unlimitedly. I dealt with these spells by creating "negative caster levels" something that lowers their overall caster abilities and are similar to negative levels to recover.

I still have not had a chance to try the system. But I think it will work very smoothly.

I had clerics wizards and such use their spells per day chart to "memorize" what spells they can do that day. I also added a penalty to meta magic so that you had to double memorize your spell to be able to apply metamagic feats to it.

 

[Lackhand]

The only thing I don't agree with is the "double penalty" for metamagic -- with the exception of putting metamagic on spells already more powerful than their level, metamagic'd spells are weaker than the slot they're in.

Sorta.

The save is lower, the damage is lower (actually, that one I'm just making up -- it probably isn't, comparing things like fireball to delayed blast fireball, but there's magic with the damage caps, etc), etc -- I'd say just pay for it as though it's a spell of the level you're about to cast anyway (i.e. spell level + metamagic adjustment)

I agree that counting 0 level spells is both dumb and trivial, but this system has one interesting side effect.

In first edition, the party wondered whether items were magical, because detect magic took up the same slot as magic missile -- and when you're contending for one of a limited number of slots, the one that can blast often wins out. Thus wands, rods, and scrolls of detect magic; thus memorizing it *anyway* because it's such a powerful utility spell.

In 3.x ed, detect magic is already much cheaper, but it's still an issue of resource management -- there are no other 0 level spells whose utility approaches it (in a 'functional' party, where the mage is willing to be sidelined or use a crossbow instead of casting acid splash -- if everyone has to deal damage every round, something's wrong in my book!).

In this system, the kings and queens of 0 level -- detect magic, detect poison, and cure minor wounds -- become essentially free.

This might be bad.
If using this system, the easiest fix is probably to bump those spells back to first level, and make everything else free.

The reasoning being that the party can now tell whether food is poisoned or magic is present from first level for essentially no cost above an action, with no chance of failure (barring countermeasures, which realistically shouldn't *always* be present) -- removing these as interesting challenges.

Actually, I can't read -- clerics actually need to *do stuff* to get back slots. Whoops. My mistake! Though you might also want to restore their slots at the appropriate prayer time and/or when able to pray in an appropriate place?

And just remove cure minor wounds from the game -- or make its effect "you autopass a heal check" -- because healing is already going to be fun to watch.

Remember: 10 minutes after every fight, the party will (now) be fresh, albeit out any one-shot items or charges they used -- 5 minutes to heal up, 5 minutes to restore clerical slots.

There's gotta be a better way to restrict buffs, but I'm not seeing it yet.

 

[Sadrik]

Detect poison is no big deal. I have not seen a caster memorize that spell ever. I suppose if they knew the situation was going to warrant poison they could then memorize it and then they could essentially do it all day long.

Detect Magic I also dont think is a problem. However, I have a suggested fix. Break it into two spells. Detect Magic and Discern Magic. Detect Magic is a duration 1 round spell and discern magic is as the spell. So, with detect magic you cannot figure out the auras strength and other info just the presence or absence of it.

Cure minor wounds is a problem. It allows parties to be fully healed after every encounter. Making potions useless and wands of healing ubsurd. I like your proposal that makes it an automatic heal check.

Other spells that are problematic are wall of Iron, Disentigrate, and various instantaneous conjuration spells that permanently summon things. If someone wanted to go through the books and make a list of problematic spells I would be interested in working on that list of spells. A lot of conjuration (healing) spells would be on that list. You have to somehow limit healing. This could simply be an alteration to divine magic in general.

Well the problem I had with metamagic was I didnt want it to be super spontaneous (just apply them whenever they want). I wanted there to be some planning still but keep it somewhat spontaneous. But after taking a look at it again I may just change it to you have to memorize it at its new level. It keeps it pretty basic.

Actually, clerics dont "use" there slots. They use their "spells per day" chart to limit their spells that they can spend their points on that day. For instance: a cleric's 1st level spells might be cure light wounds (automatic), a divine spell and 3 other spells. They can cast those spells throuout the day without penalty. Then, the next day they might switch those spells.

Limiting spell point regeneration for duration spells is decent enough (used status). That way buffs will cut down on their overall spell power during the fight. If another way to limit buffs is available I am open. I have more problems with instantaneous spells that create permanent things... Or change things permanently...

Sadrik

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Actually, I can't read -- clerics actually need to *do stuff* to get back slots. Whoops. My mistake! Though you might also want to restore their slots at the appropriate prayer time and/or when able to pray in an appropriate place?

At prayer time Clerics do receive spell points to use for their Domain spells.

Remember: 10 minutes after every fight, the party will (now) be fresh, albeit out any one-shot items or charges they used -- 5 minutes to heal up, 5 minutes to restore clerical slots.

This is the exact reason why I made Clerics have to earn their points. And why I came up with a different mechanic for the Bard.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I came up with something similar, inspired by Bo9S, and was hashing it over. I'm going to yoink your idea of active spells holding mana where it can't be recovered, thus limiting buff rushing.


I'd suggest: Cut the spell points down a little, and make a way of partially refreshing in combat, kind of like Iron Heroes has. If they throw a nuke, they'll be refreshing for a while. It'll encourage pacing themselves. Also, cut out some of the problem spells, or do the Arcana Unearthed thing and make them exotic spells they need to spend a feat on.

 

[airwalkrr]

I like this system in concept. But I see one major problem with it. It disrupts the balance of the game in ways you probably aren't considering. I noticed this problem when I once attempted to use the recharge magic system presented in Unearthed Arcana. Every single battle became predictable. The spellcasters would always unleash their most powerful spells on the first round. They had no reason to conserve resources. This is one of the main reasons why I believe Vancian spellcasting remains popular for D&D and other roleplaying games; it forces spellcasters to think strategically.

The ideal spellcasting system would encourage spellcasters to convserve their power (because otherwise the only tactical decision you have to make is where to place the fireball) while allowing them the same kind of stamina that fighters and rogues have in combat. Vancian spellcasting has the first advantage, but not the second. The OP's system has the second advantage, but not the first. It is a difficult path to tread.