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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Iku Rex" data-source="post: 2451056" data-attributes="member: 752">Hello again. I was looking in on this thread, and since it seems like Patryn of Elvenshae's arguments went unanswered I think another post is in order. 1. Comma usage a matter of style. Some googling for "such as" and comma (with variations) turns up numerous grammar guides, and proves that even the (presumed) professionals don't agree on "Patryn of Elvenshae's" comma rule. I could elaborate on that (and I will, if people insist, but I'd rather not have to write a long post on "comma usage in conjunction with the term 'such as' among grammarians publishing comma guides on the Internet") but the main issue is what the PH is supposed to mean, right?So let's looks at some PH examples. (There are more.) "Such as" provides examples of "simple commands". Any "simple command" will do - it doesn't have to be a "simple command" arbitrarily determined to resemble 'Attack,' 'Run,' and 'Fetch.' Example: 'Stay'. "Such as" provides examples of "other environmental hazards". Any "other environmental hazard" will do - it doesn't have to be an "other environmental hazard" arbitrarily determined to resemble smoke, lack of air, and so forth. Example: Avalanche. "Such as" provides examples of "combustible materials". Any "combustible material" will do - it doesn't have to be a "combustible material" arbitrarily determined to resemble parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth. Example: Gunpowder"Such as" provides examples of "normal means" [of destroying a stone wall]. Any "normal mean" will do - it doesn't have to be a "normal mean" arbitrarily determined to resemble breaking and chipping. Example: Acid. The above examples prove that PH spells are NOT written based on a style guide advocating Patryn of Elvenshae's comma rule. (Or, the writers aren't following it, which amounts to the same thing.) Using the same format:"Such as" provides examples of "divination spells". Any "divination spell" will do - it doesn't have to be a "divination spell" arbitrarily determined to resemble clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Example: True seeing. 2. Even if you conclude that nondetection only protects against divination spells that "detect", it protects against see invisible and true seeing. Nothing about the workings of "clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells" make them radically different from see invisible and true seeing. (I notice that when asked what the spells in question have in common, Patryn of Elvenshae instead points out what other spells might have in common with those listed. By that standard any spell not explicitly mentioned can be arbitrarily excluded, as it's bound to be different in some way or another. Also, it describes the rule "such as clairaudience/clairvoyance OR locate object OR detect spells".)See invisible "detects" invisible (in fact, the spell used to be called "detect invisible"). True seeing "detects" invisible and ethereal creatures, as well as illusions, magical disguises and magical obfuscation. If you're trying to sneak past a guard by magical means, you'd better hope he hasn't cast true seeing, or you'll be detected. Unless, of course, you have some way to keep people from detecting you with divination spells. Want published rules? Ok. Can do.Like I already said, the DMG (dust of disappearance) identifies see invisible and (by extension [?]) true seeing as "magical means to detect".Superior invisibility, in Compete Arcane, "renders the recipient immune to detection by see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisibility purge, dust of appearance and the blindsense ability, though creatures under the effect of the spell can still be detected by true seeing or the blindsight ability." (my emphasisThis shows that WotC game designers consider true seeing a way to perform "magical detection".</blockquote>

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