Nonleathal Damage

[Water Bob]

This rule bugs me a bit. It's almost perfect, except for one thing...

If you slap someone across the face during a melee doing one point of damage (let's say you've got STR 10 and rolled a 1 for damage) and still have 10 hit points left, then you are unconscious, not dead, after being whacked with a sword by your enemy for another 9 points of damage.

That's a lot of lethal damage being dealt with the sword--only 1 point of non-lethal damage.

What really gets me is that there's no way to kill the target outside of rendering him unconscous then killing him

You can't run him through with your sword! You've got to beat him unconsious first.





Why not go out to your troops, slap 'em in face a few times and give 'em about 5 points of non-lethal damage, then send 'em out to fight. Chances are most of them will be knocked unconscious instead of outright killed during their battles. This is a great way to exploit a loophole in the rules!*


*I would never allow this in a game--just making a point.

 

[Uber Dungeon]

Nonleathal Damage is prefect if you can get them unconscious and use the fallowing rule.
Here is a passage from the DMG1 p301
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

"otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." Lets say I wore a rogue and had snuck right up to someones back (they completely unaware of my presence would be at my mercy for a second) and used a punching dagger into the back of there skull.
I could also see a monk ripping someones jugular out with his bare hands, but really a coup de grace seems a little unlawful.
Or if he is unconscious run him through with your sword! And he'll probably die.
Or my favorite, grapple and pin someone to the ground rendering them helpless and curb stomp there face in. lol

 

[Vegepygmy]

If you slap someone across the face during a melee doing one point of damage (let's say you've got STR 10 and rolled a 1 for damage) and still have 10 hit points left, then you are unconscious, not dead, after being whacked with a sword by your enemy for another 9 points of damage.

Actually, you're staggered, not unconscious. But anyway...

That's a lot of lethal damage being dealt with the sword--only 1 point of non-lethal damage.

Welcome to the hit point model, where the vast majority of the damage you take is insignificant, but the last few points really count.

What really gets me is that there's no way to kill the target outside of rendering him unconscous then killing him

Sure there is! Just deal 10 or more points of damage above what you need to knock him unconscious. Same as if nonlethal damage isn't involved.

Why not go out to your troops, slap 'em in face a few times and give 'em about 5 points of non-lethal damage, then send 'em out to fight. Chances are most of them will be knocked unconscious instead of outright killed during their battles.

The military objective of a battle usually isn't to make sure your troops survive, but if that's your goal, then yes, in D&D World, tenderizing your army before the battle will help.

 

[frankthedm]

Agree with OP on that nonlethal damage should not increase the chance of being mearly knocked out instead of bleeding out by a follow up lethal blow.

Welcome to the hit point model, where the vast majority of the damage you take is insignificant, but the last few points really count.

When I ran d20, rather than have lethal and non lethal tracked separately, for non regenerating creatures, I had the amounts add up directly. The last blow determined Unconscious or Dying.

 

[Water Bob]

Actually, you're staggered, not unconscious. But anyway...

My game says staggered if HP = NL Wounds. If HP < NL Wounds, then character unconscious.

Sure there is! Just deal 10 or more points of damage above what you need to knock him unconscious. Same as if nonlethal damage isn't involved.

That's not what my game says. I wonder if the Conan RPG is different from regular D&D on this point.

From the rulebook: "It does not matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds the character's current hit points due to the nonlethal damage going up or his current hit points going down."

Thus, if a character takes 1 point of nonlethal damage and then takes a sword blow that renders his HP to -3, the character is unconscious--and not dying at -3 HP as he should be.

 

[Empirate]

For sanity's sake, one might also assume that the Dying condition supersedes the Unconscious condition. Kind of like Dying supersedes, I don't know, Nauseated, or Frightened, or whatnot. At least that's the way I understand the rules...

OP, if your objective is to have your troops lose the battle more quickly, sure, go ahead, knock them around a bit before the fight. I can't imagine their morale being that great after that, though. Falling unconscious in the middle of a friggin' battle is not my idea of a good time. Coz, you know, it only saves you from death if your side is winning...

 

[ValhallaGH]

My game says staggered if HP = NL Wounds. If HP < NL Wounds, then character unconscious.

Which is the scenario described in your OP.
10 hp, 9 lethal, 1 non-lethal. 1 hp, 1 non-lethal. Staggered.

 

[Water Bob]

Which is the scenario described in your OP.
10 hp, 9 lethal, 1 non-lethal. 1 hp, 1 non-lethal. Staggered.

I was off by a point...you are correct. You're supposed to understand what I mean, not what I say.

Still doesn't make sense, though.

Dude has 10 hp. Takes 1 non-lethal point = 10/1. Then, let's say he takes 13 points of real damage = -3/1.

And, he falls unconcious? I don't see it.





I think the rule should go by what type of damage is being inflicted, but keep the staggered part. Thus if a character has 10/1 hit points (10 hp and 1 non-lethal), then he is staggered if reduced to 1 hp. But, if real damage takes him to -3 hp, then it should be no different than if the character didn't have non-lethal damage. He's not knocked unconscious, but is dying.

OTOH, if the character continues to take non-lethal damage, he is knocked unconscious when non-lethal points are higher than his current HP total.

I think that would work better than the rule as written.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Dude has 10 hp. Takes 1 non-lethal point = 10/1. Then, let's say he takes 13 points of real damage = -3/1.

And, he falls unconcious? I don't see it.

A dude with 10 hp who takes 13 lethal damage falls unconscious with or without the 1 point of nonlethal damage.

I'm not seeing the issue with nonlethal damage here. (If you're just unsatisfied with the hit point model in general, I feel you, but fixing that is the Holy Grail of RPG design.)

 

[Water Bob]

A dude with 10 hp who takes 13 lethal damage falls unconscious with or without the 1 point of nonlethal damage.

I'm not seeing the issue with nonlethal damage here. (If you're just unsatisfied with the hit point model in general, I feel you, but fixing that is the Holy Grail of RPG design.)

Sorry. I was in a rush.

The point is that the nonlethal point makes the character just unconscious--not unconscious and dying as it should be (and is without the 1 point of nonlethal damage).

As for fixing it, I started a new thread called "staggered".