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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Brother MacLaren" data-source="post: 1428181" data-attributes="member: 15999">S'Mon:Dark Phoenix is from X-Men.  By far the most powerful being on Earth.  Basically has the power of a goddess and a serious temptation to abuse it.  Struggles against the temptation of power and ultimately sacrifices herself to prevent further destruction.  A great way of showing that high-power characters don't need higher-powered foes to challenge them.  The power itself can be the danger.Duncan MacLeod... well, in very few episodes of the TV series did they ever convince me he was at any risk of losing a fight (even if the bad guy was cheating).  He was presented as the best swordsman in his world.  But that didn't mean he could solve every problem or protect those he cared about.You're right, Merlin is a bad example, since he was never the one facing the challenges.  But Lancelot and Arthur weren't ever challenged by more powerful foes, they met other types of challenges.Of course, literature and TV are not a perfect model for game design.  But I think it may have some lessons as to how to challenge high-level PCs without saying "Oh yeah?  Well, Mordenkainen could still take you."  (not that you were saying that)Ciaran:But couldn't it be possible (and fun) for the 17th-level PC to destroy the 19th-level NPC?  Now, all of a sudden, he actually gets to be the highest-level wizard there is.  He's the big dog.  He's the one who every king wants on his side or dead; he's the one the level 15's come gunning for.  I think if you then say "Oh, well, there was also this other higher-level guy you didn't know about," you're perpetually denying the player the chance to be The Best.  And why shouldn't he get to be The Best?  He's certainly earned it.  Now, there may still be dragons and demons that would pose a challenge, but in terms of spellcasting ability he's it.  The big kahuna.  I think that could be a great way to run the (either ending or Epic) stages of the campaign.  What do you think?Piratecat: You make some good points.  The point I was trying to make is that "Being the best" does not mean you can't be challenged.  Boromir was taken down by a horde of inferior opponents.  Hercules and Achilles were slain by poison, and Samson had his own weakness that was exploited.  The master swordsman in The Seven Samurai was the best in the land, and was slain by a firearm.  Phoenix fell victim to the temptation of power.   Again, I recognize literature isn't a perfect frame of reference for gaming, but the idea that even the powerful have their weaknesses is valid.  A 20th-level rogue may be the best that ever lived, but against a 15th-level necromancer he may be in serious trouble.</blockquote>

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