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<blockquote data-quote="Brother MacLaren" data-source="post: 1436967" data-attributes="member: 15999">Yes - but you kind of make my point for me.&nbsp; Duncan was &quot;beaten&quot; by a foe that attacked his weakness (Will save).&nbsp; He wasn't beaten by a superior swordsman.&nbsp; Likewise, Boromir and Achilles weren't defeated by better warriors, Hercules and Samson didn't get their butts whooped by stronger dudes, and Robin Hood wasn't challenged by a better archer.&nbsp; So, yes, the best can be beaten, but it's not necessary to challenge their strength head-on.&nbsp; Let the 20th-level fighter be the best fighter in the world, but challenge him with situations.&nbsp; (Foes outnumber him; foes use poison; he's caught unarmored at one point; betrayed by someone close to him; foes use mental/magical attacks.)&nbsp; Victim - you make a lot of really good points.&nbsp; A properly-played NPC party - even one of lower level - can be very dangerous.&nbsp; I also hadn't thought about your &quot;end to the arms race&quot; but it is kind of neat to see how Gather Information and Hide could remain useful.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Brother MacLaren, post: 1436967, member: 15999"] Yes - but you kind of make my point for me. Duncan was "beaten" by a foe that attacked his weakness (Will save). He wasn't beaten by a superior swordsman. Likewise, Boromir and Achilles weren't defeated by better warriors, Hercules and Samson didn't get their butts whooped by stronger dudes, and Robin Hood wasn't challenged by a better archer. So, yes, the best can be beaten, but it's not necessary to challenge their strength head-on. Let the 20th-level fighter be the best fighter in the world, but challenge him with situations. (Foes outnumber him; foes use poison; he's caught unarmored at one point; betrayed by someone close to him; foes use mental/magical attacks.) Victim - you make a lot of really good points. A properly-played NPC party - even one of lower level - can be very dangerous. I also hadn't thought about your "end to the arms race" but it is kind of neat to see how Gather Information and Hide could remain useful. [/QUOTE]

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