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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Campbell" data-source="post: 8941442" data-attributes="member: 16586">[USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER]So, from my perspective the play loops are the game. The game is not contained in the text, but the system (procedures, principles, agendas) actually utilized at the table. Changing the play loops changes the game. Games are cultural phenomena, a set of norms reinforced through the overall culture of play. We can set our own unique culture of play at our table, but that is fundamentally an act of design. Basically, I find your focus on the text rather than the norms and structure of play decidedly unhelpful in the actual discussion of games.The two diagrams I outlined are not the only possible arrangements, but each possible arrangement will result in different sets of tradeoffs. That's how design and engineering works. The disciplines are different and will result in different experiences. There is no best of all possible worlds.Besides none of this is in anyway helpful to the analysis of play. We have to have some set of standards to start from. I mean your particular commentary fully engages in this except when it seeks to conflate styles of play when the particular strengths of conflict resolution are brought up. You seem more than happy enough to embrace the strong points of task resolution.I personally view this as a rejection of the set of disciplines I have learned and practiced for more than 15 years. Both when it comes to the play model espoused by Apocalypse World and also my own experiences running games like Vampire, Legend of the Five Rings, et al.</blockquote>

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