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<blockquote data-quote="shurai" data-source="post: 3501563">Umbran is right, I'm not after you personally.&nbsp; I'm after an attitude which I think is harmful to the hobby.That thread shows what I mean.&nbsp; It wasn't really about optimizing a character in the usual powergaming way.&nbsp; It was about kelson, a self-described beginner, in a roleplaying group new to crunch-heavy dungeon-crawling.&nbsp; He did say &quot;maximize healing&quot; and &quot;use any book,&quot; it's true.&nbsp; But maximized healing in this case needed to be balanced against other factors.&nbsp; People who aren't used to crunchy play have more fun with simplicity and clarity rather than complexity and optimization, most of the time.&nbsp; Beginning groups are more likely to be disrupted by powergamed characters, I'd guess.This is the point:&nbsp; Not everyone wants powergaming, and I would put this group into that category.Moritheil, lots of people made powergaming suggestions in that thread.&nbsp; I don't think kelson's needs were served by any of them, and said so.&nbsp; I happened to be talking to you at the time, and you suggested a new thread, so here we are.&nbsp; I think we agree, basically, in that we both want kelson to have fun paying an effective character.&nbsp; The real discussion is how to achieve that:&nbsp; I'm arguing that a plain-jane level 13 cleric is good enough for the context of relative beginners in their first high-crunch dungeon crawl.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="shurai, post: 3501563"] Umbran is right, I'm not after you personally. I'm after an attitude which I think is harmful to the hobby. That thread shows what I mean. It wasn't really about optimizing a character in the usual powergaming way. It was about kelson, a self-described beginner, in a roleplaying group new to crunch-heavy dungeon-crawling. He did say "maximize healing" and "use any book," it's true. But maximized healing in this case needed to be balanced against other factors. People who aren't used to crunchy play have more fun with simplicity and clarity rather than complexity and optimization, most of the time. Beginning groups are more likely to be disrupted by powergamed characters, I'd guess. This is the point: Not everyone wants powergaming, and I would put this group into that category. Moritheil, lots of people made powergaming suggestions in that thread. I don't think kelson's needs were served by any of them, and said so. I happened to be talking to you at the time, and you suggested a new thread, so here we are. I think we agree, basically, in that we both want kelson to have fun paying an effective character. The real discussion is how to achieve that: I'm arguing that a plain-jane level 13 cleric is good enough for the context of relative beginners in their first high-crunch dungeon crawl. [/QUOTE]

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