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<blockquote data-quote="jasin" data-source="post: 3507513" data-attributes="member: 7531">So, would you say that a human paragon/wizard/loremaster is effective or optimized or both or neither?He gives up a level of spellcasting to get a 8 more hp (somewhat irrelevant later, but a nice boost at low levels), diplomacy as a class skill forever, some ranks in other non-wizard skills (mostly to get synergies to diplomacy, a head start on UMD before getting into loremaster, and search to fill in for the rogue) and +2 to Int (improves save DCs and spells per day, so it offsets the lost spellcasting a bit, and give yet more skills). Also, free MWP. Loremaster gets even more skills, and improves saves (through secrets).It's a character designed by careful intent to be useful to his adventuring party, but the very point of the careful intent is making him useful in more ways than he would be if designed the &quot;obvious&quot; way (straight wizard), even if that means he is a bit less useful in his primary role.And another question: is the &quot;optimized&quot; label about the process or the result? If you bend over backwards to make the best halfling barbarian/bard you can, he'll probably end up less effective than a casually built half-orc barbarian. Which of these is (more) optimized?To me it seems this is just pointless quibbling over semantics. Optimized is the new minmaxed is the new munchkin: the term you use to note your disapproval of the power level of a character, with the threshold varying wildly even for the same person depending on their opinions of the character concept, the other player's personality, the way they think the game should be played...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jasin, post: 3507513, member: 7531"] So, would you say that a human paragon/wizard/loremaster is effective or optimized or both or neither? He gives up a level of spellcasting to get a 8 more hp (somewhat irrelevant later, but a nice boost at low levels), diplomacy as a class skill forever, some ranks in other non-wizard skills (mostly to get synergies to diplomacy, a head start on UMD before getting into loremaster, and search to fill in for the rogue) and +2 to Int (improves save DCs and spells per day, so it offsets the lost spellcasting a bit, and give yet more skills). Also, free MWP. Loremaster gets even more skills, and improves saves (through secrets). It's a character designed by careful intent to be useful to his adventuring party, but the very point of the careful intent is making him useful in more ways than he would be if designed the "obvious" way (straight wizard), even if that means he is a bit less useful in his primary role. And another question: is the "optimized" label about the process or the result? If you bend over backwards to make the best halfling barbarian/bard you can, he'll probably end up less effective than a casually built half-orc barbarian. Which of these is (more) optimized? To me it seems this is just pointless quibbling over semantics. Optimized is the new minmaxed is the new munchkin: the term you use to note your disapproval of the power level of a character, with the threshold varying wildly even for the same person depending on their opinions of the character concept, the other player's personality, the way they think the game should be played... [/QUOTE]

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