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Message: <blockquote data-quote="phindar" data-source="post: 3409463" data-attributes="member: 37198">I like UD, but I also don't think it makes much sense for two opponents who are aware of one another to be able to catch each other flat-footed, just because of the way initiative works in the game.  Being flat-footed before your initiative makes sense when surprised or ambushed, but when characters are moving tactically and expecting attack (as they often would in a dungeon), its a little harder to justify.  If the group fights some bugbears in a room, and the GM decides that more bugbears will arrive 3 rounds later, if the group stays on initiative rounds they won't be flat-footed when the new opponents arrive.  If they don't, they have to roll initiative again and may be caught flat-footed (or the bugbears might be), even though in game, the characters aren't doing anything different than if they'd stayed on initiative.  Its one of those cases where you can really hear the gears grinding in the mechanics.So I think this is a pretty good idea.  I don't think it weakens UD as much as it makes ambushes (Hide and Mv Silent skills and spells) more important.  (Rogues in particular have the Hide/Mv Silent/Bluff skills necessary to catch people flat-footed anyway.  In a non-ambush situation, say like two unfriendly people in a negotiation that goes bad, if you want to catch the other guy flat-footed, it should be a Bluff opposed by Sense Motive roll, not a "I hope I win initiative" roll.)</blockquote>

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