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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6775832" data-attributes="member: 22779">See  [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION]'s responses which is more what I was responding to.  He's arguing that the rules DO say what you're saying they do.Now, you could start changing rules to say that training makes you climb faster.  The "attempt and succeed" simply talks about having a higher bonus - that could be through training, or natural talent or a combination of both.  But, that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about a situation where two characters achieve the exact same success - ie. roll the same result on a check.So, ok, let's unpack your example a bit though.  It's a DC 15 wall to climb.  We both score a 16, so, we both succeed.  You have a +6 bonus to climb through talent and training and I have no bonus at all, simply rolled high.  Fair enough, we both do climb the wall.  You're saying, I think, that you should climb that wall faster than me.  How much faster?  Do you gain bonuses to movement?  The rules say that climbing is half speed.  If we're both human, we climb 15 feet per round, by RAW.  Are you saying you should have a climb speed of 45?  (That's using the 3x damage model you used earlier with weapons) because you are trained in climbing?  Should you move your full speed?  But that is a different DC, and a much harder one, that your 16 would not have achieved.So, just how much faster are you climbing?  Is it enough to actually make a difference?  If I climb at 15 feet and you climb at 19, it's not going to make any difference on a 15 foot wall.  Or, at least, not any difference mechanically.  And, you can't climb faster than half your speed without raising the DC.  So, how exactly do you express, "A trained PC climbs faster than an untrained one"?  Oh, and does level matter here?  I can be trained at level 1 and have a +2 bonus or I can be trained at level 20 and have a +6.  Does my 20th level PC climb three times faster?On and on and on.  It's inconsistent.  That's why I'm arguing against changing the rules.  The system is not finely grained enough to express small increments of change - and if the changes are larger, then the DC changes.I'm just not seeing how you would implement this in any meaningful way without adding all sorts of problems.</blockquote>

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