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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 6778764" data-attributes="member: 23751">There haven't been any that you haven't created through a Strawman of my position or you mislabeling training + natural talent as purely natural talent.First, you asked why we would model it that way and I'm answering, so your goals are irrelevant to this discussion.&nbsp; Second, it's almost no extra work at all.This is false.&nbsp; You simply didn't understand the analogy.There is no inconsistency.&nbsp; My way applies to all skills.&nbsp; It never applies to the other two.&nbsp; It's consistent.&nbsp; It's consistent the same way that a magic item that works for everyone, but works better for elves is consistent.&nbsp; The game is full of exceptions to the rules.&nbsp; It's an exception based rule set.&nbsp; That doesn't make the rules inconsistent.&nbsp; It just means that many things will work differently in different areas.First, it's not an inconsistency.&nbsp; If it was, then failure to add proficiency bonus to hit points would also be &quot;inconsistent.&quot;&nbsp; Why only saves, skills and attacks?&nbsp; Inconsistent!!!!&nbsp; Second, the answer to why is that it better models reality, but then you knew that before you asked the question for the umpteenth time in this thread.&nbsp; I have a hard time believing that your memory is that faulty.It not that complex, involves very little work, and adds a ton of fun and enjoyment to the game.The roll is irrelevant to the narration.&nbsp; The PCs are unaware of who rolled what.&nbsp; The players know the rule.&nbsp; The narration will never reference a roll.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 6778764, member: 23751"] There haven't been any that you haven't created through a Strawman of my position or you mislabeling training + natural talent as purely natural talent. First, you asked why we would model it that way and I'm answering, so your goals are irrelevant to this discussion. Second, it's almost no extra work at all. This is false. You simply didn't understand the analogy. There is no inconsistency. My way applies to all skills. It never applies to the other two. It's consistent. It's consistent the same way that a magic item that works for everyone, but works better for elves is consistent. The game is full of exceptions to the rules. It's an exception based rule set. That doesn't make the rules inconsistent. It just means that many things will work differently in different areas. First, it's not an inconsistency. If it was, then failure to add proficiency bonus to hit points would also be "inconsistent." Why only saves, skills and attacks? Inconsistent!!!! Second, the answer to why is that it better models reality, but then you knew that before you asked the question for the umpteenth time in this thread. I have a hard time believing that your memory is that faulty. It not that complex, involves very little work, and adds a ton of fun and enjoyment to the game. The roll is irrelevant to the narration. The PCs are unaware of who rolled what. The players know the rule. The narration will never reference a roll. [/QUOTE]

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