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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ristamar" data-source="post: 7687268" data-attributes="member: 1207">It's a secondary Perception check in the sense that it's a die roll that allows the victim to perceive something they already missed by definition of the existing Stealth versus Perception mechanics.  If you don't like the label "secondary Perception check," we can call it whatever you'd like, but it still allows the victim another chance to notice something is amiss even when they previously failed to notice any signs of danger.  In most scenarios, I don't mind the implication of the fiction behind the mechanics, and it often does not amount to a material difference in play.  Sure, you can surprise someone, then attack first yet lose initiative.  The target would see it coming at the last second, but may not be able to act accordingly.  And, yes, if the target was a monk, he may be able to deflect an arrow before it hits that mark.I do, however, find it somewhat questionable that an Initiative roll (an ability check) can drastically affect a single subclass' signature abilities beyond his skill to remain hidden or disguised, and I bristle at the implication that Initiative is a "special" opposed roll that cannot ever be adjudicated like any other ability check.</blockquote>