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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 4293400" data-attributes="member: 957">It is a shades of grey thing. Are you trying to get up someone's nose when you tell them they CAN'T roleplay Descent?  Does that mean Descent IS a roleplaying game?  Does it mean Descent isn't a roleplaying game?I think it was in Seven Habits that the author talked about a test done in a college class.  The guy took one of those illusions where it can look like and attractive woman or an old hag depending on how you looked at it.  First he gave everyone in the class versions of the image that had been edited so that one version or the other was immediately obvious.  Half got each version.  Then he showed the illusion version on the screen and started conversation.  Of course, everyone saw the version they had been conditioned to see.  And in short order people were calling each other idiots for being incapable of seeing something so obvious as what a hag/hottie that image was.An important part of the point is that in real life, these conditioned elements are not simply a function of which 50/50 chance picture you were handed first.  Instead, they can be much more ingrained to an individual.  But that doesn't mean that more than one point of view can not be right at the same time.Can you roleplay 4E?  Hell yes, most absolutely.  It most clearly is intended to be played that way.  But, has it placed as much emphasis on consistent world interaction as 3e?  I'd say no.  If you rate roleplaying on a scale of 1 to 50 then I'd say that rock paper scissors is a 1, chess is a 3, Descent is a 15, 4E is a 30, and 3E is a 45.  That is a totally off the cuff throwing of some abstract quantifications that may be different if you ask me tomorrow.  But the basic idea won't.  4E has sacrificed a lot of "the rules are physics", "the rules apply to everyone the same", an complexity to meet an expectation (amongst other elements) in  exchange for simplicity of prep and play.  And 4e lovers are trumpeting these as features.  To me they are major bugs that take away from the level of feedback and reward that comes from roleplaying.  A roleplaying game isn't simply about talking in funny voices and pretending.  To be a good RPG, the game mechanics must consistently and excellently respond and engage the roleplaying.  And they can't go telling me how I have to look at things a different way in order for it to work.I rate 4E closer to 50 than to 1.  But, for what I want, for what I can easily have, it isn't good enough and doesn't meet the minimum standard to qualify.  I've got no desire to speak for you, but for me, it isn't close enough to be a roleplaying game.  I'm not saying that to get up anyone's nose.  I'm saying that because for my expectations it is pure and simple truth.  And if anyone can't accept that as my point of view, then I have to wonder if they are simply being obtuse just to trey to get up MY nose.</blockquote>

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