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<blockquote data-quote="CrashFiend82" data-source="post: 7003273" data-attributes="member: 6778742">I do enjoy the ideas and discussion, but I do take umbrage with the obvious meta-gaming from a player perspective in your example. For example, what if the DM had decided to make a more athletic ogre, or one that has proficiency, or expertise in Strength (athletics). As for the rules in the DMG pg. 279. If you want a monster to be proficient in a skill you can give a bonus equal to its proficiency ability on checks related to that skill... You can double the proficiency to account for heightened mastery. So in your example what if I, as the DM, decide to have an ogre with mastery in athletics, say with a prof bonus of +2 doubled to +4 now it has +8 to Strength (athletics). If the DC for pushing over the tree is 25 (a midsize tree), and roll and its successful. I can not fathom how this is &quot;cheating&quot; in some form, as the characters, need not have some prior meta-game knowledge about every single ogre. Consider reality, can you look at a professional lineman in football and know what he is able to bench, or his ability to pass block (closest corollary, I have to the strength of an ogre, no offense to any athletes). So as a DM, since I have that toolset to make the change based on rules provided, how is that being &quot;unfair&quot;?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CrashFiend82, post: 7003273, member: 6778742"] I do enjoy the ideas and discussion, but I do take umbrage with the obvious meta-gaming from a player perspective in your example. For example, what if the DM had decided to make a more athletic ogre, or one that has proficiency, or expertise in Strength (athletics). As for the rules in the DMG pg. 279. [I]If you want a monster to be proficient in a skill you can give a bonus equal to its proficiency ability on checks related to that skill[/I]... You can double the proficiency to account for heightened mastery. So in your example what if I, as the DM, decide to have an ogre with mastery in athletics, say with a prof bonus of +2 doubled to +4 now it has +8 to Strength (athletics). If the DC for pushing over the tree is 25 (a midsize tree), and roll and its successful. I can not fathom how this is "cheating" in some form, as the characters, need not have some prior meta-game knowledge about every single ogre. Consider reality, can you look at a professional lineman in football and know what he is able to bench, or his ability to pass block (closest corollary, I have to the strength of an ogre, no offense to any athletes). So as a DM, since I have that toolset to make the change based on rules provided, how is that being "unfair"? [/QUOTE]

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