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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7003879" data-attributes="member: 6785785">I don't know if I agree that this example would be so disruptive to immersion within the fictional world. I understand your point, but I don't think that having the ogre function differently in some ways than PCs is all that big a deal. I mean, certainly there are creatures in the world that can do things the PCs cannot do. There is presumably some creature out there that can knock the tree down...a dragon or a storm giant or a titan, what have you...and it sounds like most folks would accept it in those cases.So the issue seems to stem from the fact that the players KNOW that the ogre has a 19 STR and that so do they (or so one or two of them may have). So if that is the issue...the perceived parity of STR between the PC and the ogre...then for me the answer is to eliminate that expected parity. I don't think this is removing the rules of the fictional world so much as it is redefining them. Such a redefinition may or may not be suitable or accepted by the group....so I certainly am not saying this is an approach for everyone. I just don't think that we need to adhere to such clearly defined mechanics at all times.I'd treat a PC who grew to large size through magic in much the same way, I think. Just let the tree be knocked over...let the chance of failure or success in the scenario stem from whether the tree hits the intended target. No need to double the amount of checks required. Yeah, I think with 5E, the math seems mostly based on combat and with bounded accuracy in mind. I really don't think that the designers intended for an ogre to be limited to human level feats of STR. I mean, looking at the appearance of the ogre as depicted in the Monster Manual certainly doesn't give me the impression of a creature whose strength is equal to that of a very strong man. I see a distinction in a STR score for creatures of varying size. I do t think that's a problem overall, nor that it must lead to inconsistency. I think that it's just a matter of putting some of this on the DM rather than in another area, like the powers of 4E as you mention. I can see the problem with that in general, sure. I don't know if I think it applies in this instance since PCs are not the same size as ogres. Not without some kind of magic...in which case let the PC succeed because hey, magic!But I think this view also implies there should be nothing that the PCs see an NPC or monster do that they cannot, no? So I don't know if this is a real strong way of looking at the issue. Some creatures can and should be able to do things that the PCs cannot. And vice versa, of course.This is true, but again I think this all relies on a good deal of meta knowledge and then using that in play. Obviously, for games that have already established how all this works, it would be harder to adjust. But for players who don't know that the ogre has a 19 STR, or those who aren't as concerned about the mechcanical implications of that 19, it's likely not an adjustment at all. I don't know if the rule of cool is something barred from the game. It's not specifically referenced on the books, but there are plenty of areas where it or something like it seems to be implied. Plenty of times where DM judgment is not just recommended, but absolutely required.</blockquote>

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