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Message: <blockquote data-quote="payn" data-source="post: 9539352" data-attributes="member: 90374">A few thoughts... Role playing often means working within the meta. If a PC can roll to deceive with a skill, so can NPCs. However, I view social skills a bit more like hiding motives, information, or otherwise disposition or incline to agreement. Just because an NPC bluffed a PC, doesnt mean the PC has to trust them whole heartily. Social skills are not mind control, but a failed check leaves the target in a position of having only their suspicions and nothing concrete to act upon. I take that as a roleplay challenge, in which my agency feels intact. I know some players are just natrually suspisicous of everything and ready to kill any and every NPC to avoid any betrayl or deception. Thats not the type of game I personally enjoy. Once in awhile, my PC fails and is fooled and how I choose to play that outcome is my agency. YMMV.I tend to run political intrigue heavy games so social situations often are nuanced things. Paizo's War for the Crown AP for example, has entire social situations such as honor ceremonies, legislative sessions, and affluent balls. Players are going to make numerous skill checks throughout the adventure/session with aims towards the goal of persuading allies, rebuffing enemies, and uncovering hidden information. So, building a complex series of checks can prevent the issue of a single failed check seeming like a lost session or PC mind control.The presentation has everything to do with this too. There is a thread about amnesia whacking the PCs to stop them from ruining an end of game metaplot by engaging a faction too soon. The aim is to steer the players away until they can handle that point of the campaign. I think if you create a situation where some metaplot or end game point is revealed through a single skill/save check, you simply messed up, GMs need to be very mindful of this set up becasue its easier to fall into than it seems. It doesnt need to be campaign end game either, a simple single session adventure can go wildly off the rails if a GM tips their hand too soon and the players figure out by naturally playing the game. However, I think there is some onus on the players to play along with the GM as well. Othewrwise, yes if the game is a simple pass/fail state than skill portion of the game is a waste from GM side.</blockquote>

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