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NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9541660" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I'm not sure how to reconcile <em>a successful roll means that the player thinks the NPC is telling the truth</em> with <em>the roll doesn't determine what the player believes</em>. Aren't "think s" and "believes" synonyms in this context?</p><p></p><p>Given that you're familiar with a wide variety of games, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for here.</p><p></p><p>But some RPGs I know, in which the outcome of a NPC's action directed at a PC can require the player to make certain choices for their PC even though the player would prefer otherwise, are Marvel Heroic RP and Torchbearer 2e.</p><p></p><p>From the MHRP rules (pp OM56, OM59):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Non-physical conflict actions use many of the same rules as combat or physical actions, so everything we’ve introduced so far is fair game. Actions, reactions, effects, extraordinary successes, and dividing your attention are all just as valid in tense Scenes between Spider-Man and Mary Jane or Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. And any emotionally charged Scene can escalate to a knockdown drag-out fight, depending on who’s involved. So keep this in mind as you read on - an Action Scene can be physical, mental, emotional, or any combination of the three. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">It’s easier to understand being knocked out in a pitched battle with the forces of Hydra than it is to wrap your head around losing control of your character’s emotions or mental state. Roleplaying games are about getting into character and making decisions for a heroic persona, right? When the rules tell you that you have to make decisions you didn’t want to make, or when the rules make those decisions for you, it can seem worse than having your hero get clobbered.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In this game, the big decisions are yours to make. There are two ways to handle it when your hero is stressed out mentally, emotionally, or both. The first is that you can just let the Watcher describe what happens, and trust that the situation’s going to change again soon. Since a stressed out character can’t actually do anything like rolling dice or taking action, your character might temporarily take a bit of a back seat to the story. Alternately, the Watcher might skip to a new Scene, where you’ve recovered your stress and now you’re back in control but dealing with trauma.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The other option is to play it up! If you know what your opponent wanted you to do, you can take direction from that and make decisions for your hero that have that in mind. You can even do this when you haven’t been stressed out yet, but you’re wrestling with high levels of mental or emotional stress. Describe how your hero paces back and forth, angry and frustrated. Or have your hero lost in despair, opening up his heart to the manipulative villain. It’s still an interesting story, and this way you’re still in charge. And if you do choose to play it out, the Watcher might reward an exceptional</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">performance with a Plot Point, especially if it lines up with one of your Distinctions or Milestones.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If you’re being mind controlled or possessed, the same applies. Mind control starts out as influence (a complication) that can lead to full-on domination (“stressed out” by complication). Villains with mind control powers, like the Purple Man, usually try to have heroes do things that they otherwise wouldn’t do, or keep them from doing things they want or need to do. Fighting this kind of influence is equivalent to making a recovery action, but you’re not rolling against the doom pool. Instead, the character with mind control powers opposes, keeping you from stepping back or eliminating that mental stress.</p><p></p><p>And here's an example from some of my own recent Torchbearer play:</p><p></p><p>As a result of social interaction resolution, the PCs first had to give up some of their magic water, and then had to hand over their "sacred" silver bucket to pay for passage.</p><p></p><p>Here's another example which involved a single check - Manipulator vs Manipulator - rather than extended conflict resolution:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9541660, member: 42582"] I'm not sure how to reconcile [I]a successful roll means that the player thinks the NPC is telling the truth[/I] with [I]the roll doesn't determine what the player believes[/I]. Aren't "think s" and "believes" synonyms in this context? Given that you're familiar with a wide variety of games, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for here. But some RPGs I know, in which the outcome of a NPC's action directed at a PC can require the player to make certain choices for their PC even though the player would prefer otherwise, are Marvel Heroic RP and Torchbearer 2e. From the MHRP rules (pp OM56, OM59): [indent]Non-physical conflict actions use many of the same rules as combat or physical actions, so everything we’ve introduced so far is fair game. Actions, reactions, effects, extraordinary successes, and dividing your attention are all just as valid in tense Scenes between Spider-Man and Mary Jane or Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. And any emotionally charged Scene can escalate to a knockdown drag-out fight, depending on who’s involved. So keep this in mind as you read on - an Action Scene can be physical, mental, emotional, or any combination of the three. . . . It’s easier to understand being knocked out in a pitched battle with the forces of Hydra than it is to wrap your head around losing control of your character’s emotions or mental state. Roleplaying games are about getting into character and making decisions for a heroic persona, right? When the rules tell you that you have to make decisions you didn’t want to make, or when the rules make those decisions for you, it can seem worse than having your hero get clobbered. In this game, the big decisions are yours to make. There are two ways to handle it when your hero is stressed out mentally, emotionally, or both. The first is that you can just let the Watcher describe what happens, and trust that the situation’s going to change again soon. Since a stressed out character can’t actually do anything like rolling dice or taking action, your character might temporarily take a bit of a back seat to the story. Alternately, the Watcher might skip to a new Scene, where you’ve recovered your stress and now you’re back in control but dealing with trauma. The other option is to play it up! If you know what your opponent wanted you to do, you can take direction from that and make decisions for your hero that have that in mind. You can even do this when you haven’t been stressed out yet, but you’re wrestling with high levels of mental or emotional stress. Describe how your hero paces back and forth, angry and frustrated. Or have your hero lost in despair, opening up his heart to the manipulative villain. It’s still an interesting story, and this way you’re still in charge. And if you do choose to play it out, the Watcher might reward an exceptional performance with a Plot Point, especially if it lines up with one of your Distinctions or Milestones. If you’re being mind controlled or possessed, the same applies. Mind control starts out as influence (a complication) that can lead to full-on domination (“stressed out” by complication). Villains with mind control powers, like the Purple Man, usually try to have heroes do things that they otherwise wouldn’t do, or keep them from doing things they want or need to do. Fighting this kind of influence is equivalent to making a recovery action, but you’re not rolling against the doom pool. Instead, the character with mind control powers opposes, keeping you from stepping back or eliminating that mental stress.[/indent] And here's an example from some of my own recent Torchbearer play: As a result of social interaction resolution, the PCs first had to give up some of their magic water, and then had to hand over their "sacred" silver bucket to pay for passage. Here's another example which involved a single check - Manipulator vs Manipulator - rather than extended conflict resolution: [/QUOTE]
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