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NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9542968" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>For someone who doesn't even offer a good faith argument, doesn't show signs you even understand my argument, and who spends most of your post doing ad hominem attacks in an apparent attempt to draw moderation down on me, you have a massive amount of confidence.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's not true and it doesn't even describe my playstyle, as anyone who has ever been at my table would know. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, because that's not even my playstyle, as anyone who has ever been at my table would know. You can for example build a 'diplomancer' at my table whose incredibly high skill at social interactions lets you readily manipulate NPCs. But you are so hung up on pass/fail success rates that you don't even seem to understand what I'm saying.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you can't produce an argument, apparently you just throw out some insults and innuendo? Personally, I'd consider that a social fumble, but whatever. Let's just hit this head on, if you really are mentally disabled then yes, there is a good chance you will find it impossible to roleplay a highly intelligent person successfully. I mean, I've known some really smart guys that were just math learning disabled and struggled with basic addition, but who could read literature at a college level, but if we're talking about a general difficulty with abstract thought then they aren't going to be able to play someone who is super smart on their own. The rules won't be able to help this, as if intelligence was a quality so simple that we could easily emulate with a few text blocks. </p><p></p><p>I tried to avoid going this way out of respect, but here we are. I tried instead to suggest playing with some 5 year old players (or younger) in order to get a learning experience for those that disagree with me. The reality is that if you have that sort of gap, ultimately the only way to make up for it is to have the GM playing their character to some extent or another, via prompting or other railroading techniques. </p><p></p><p>As for the socially impaired, depending on the social impairment you can have the same problem. If the player is merely cripplingly shy, introverted and lacking in self-confidence, that we can move past to a certain extent using character skill and some gentle encouragement. If the player lacks the ability to understand cause and effect in social interactions because they lack basic empathy and theory of mind skills, they will have a real struggle playing a character that is empathetic and can successfully manipulate people without making enemies. That's reality. Little blocks of text describing character skill can't add the complexity of the thing that is missing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9542968, member: 4937"] For someone who doesn't even offer a good faith argument, doesn't show signs you even understand my argument, and who spends most of your post doing ad hominem attacks in an apparent attempt to draw moderation down on me, you have a massive amount of confidence. That's not true and it doesn't even describe my playstyle, as anyone who has ever been at my table would know. No, because that's not even my playstyle, as anyone who has ever been at my table would know. You can for example build a 'diplomancer' at my table whose incredibly high skill at social interactions lets you readily manipulate NPCs. But you are so hung up on pass/fail success rates that you don't even seem to understand what I'm saying. If you can't produce an argument, apparently you just throw out some insults and innuendo? Personally, I'd consider that a social fumble, but whatever. Let's just hit this head on, if you really are mentally disabled then yes, there is a good chance you will find it impossible to roleplay a highly intelligent person successfully. I mean, I've known some really smart guys that were just math learning disabled and struggled with basic addition, but who could read literature at a college level, but if we're talking about a general difficulty with abstract thought then they aren't going to be able to play someone who is super smart on their own. The rules won't be able to help this, as if intelligence was a quality so simple that we could easily emulate with a few text blocks. I tried to avoid going this way out of respect, but here we are. I tried instead to suggest playing with some 5 year old players (or younger) in order to get a learning experience for those that disagree with me. The reality is that if you have that sort of gap, ultimately the only way to make up for it is to have the GM playing their character to some extent or another, via prompting or other railroading techniques. As for the socially impaired, depending on the social impairment you can have the same problem. If the player is merely cripplingly shy, introverted and lacking in self-confidence, that we can move past to a certain extent using character skill and some gentle encouragement. If the player lacks the ability to understand cause and effect in social interactions because they lack basic empathy and theory of mind skills, they will have a real struggle playing a character that is empathetic and can successfully manipulate people without making enemies. That's reality. Little blocks of text describing character skill can't add the complexity of the thing that is missing. [/QUOTE]
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