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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bill Zebub" data-source="post: 9548287" data-attributes="member: 7031982">Right, so is Dominate Person.  Are we talking about 5e?  Yes, Deception and Persuasion checks are mechanics with rules.  But the applicable rules talk about how DMs can use those when players declare actions.  Any "use" of those skills by PCs needs to be extrapolated.  Unless you've noticed something that I haven't.(If we're not talking about 5e....and this thread is not in a D&D forum...then, yes, of course the rules are whatever the game in questions says they are.) Again, if we are talking about 5e I don't think there's a special exception.  The play loop defined for PCs is:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The player declares an action as a goal and approach.  ("I want to persuade the guard to let us through by showing sympathy for the crappy assignments he always gets.")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The DM decides if that action automatically succeeds or fails, or if there is uncertainty.  ("Hmm...how likely do I think this is to work?")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If there is uncertainty, and there is a meaningful consequence for failure, the DM may set a DC and ask for an attribute roll, possibly modified by a skill proficiency.  ("Ok, that is going to take a DC 13 Charisma (Persuasion) check, but if you fail the guard is going to get suspicious.")</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The player then makes the roll (or, in my game, may decide that the risk:reward profile is not attractive, and change their mind.)</li> </ol>Although 5e does not describe what to do if an NPC tries to persuade a PC, for those who think the rules should apply equally, I suggest we follow that exact same play loop, but in reverse.  Which means the player decides whether success or failure is automatic.  And if the player isn't sure, they are free to set some stakes and ask for a roll.I can allow that one might not like doing it this way, and might choose to keep all that decision making with the DM, but I don't see how one could possibly claim that the 5e rules instruct us to do that.Nor do I understand any argument for such a think might be necessary.  What's the objection to giving the player the same control over their character that the DM has over theirs?</blockquote>

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