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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9569515" data-attributes="member: 42582">This thing about changing character goals is something you have introduced to the discussion. I don't accept it, and have made multiple posts explaining why not.As for the idea that the "internal" is more fundamental to a character than the "external", I don't think that's universally or even typically true. Aragorn, for instance, is defined as much by the fact of his true kingship (something external) as by his humility in pursuit of it (something internal).I'm not ignoring your point. Rather, I don't really agree with it.That is, I don't accept that pretending to debate something is the same thing as actually debating it. Two people discuss something they both actually care about, and someone yields because they don't think it's worthwhile jeopardising the interpersonal relationship - that's one thing. Two RPGers portray characters discussing something, and one of them yields because they think it's time for the game to move onto something else - that's a different thing.Two people discuss something, presenting reasons to one another. And one person is persuaded by the other's reasons. That's one thing. Two RPGers portray characters discussing something, and one of them decides to portray their character as persuaded by the "reasons" that the other has chosen to adduce. That's a different thing. It may or may not reflect the strength of the reasons.There may be some cases, in RPGing, where the discussion is not pretence. For instance, in the fiction two people ("characters') discuss whether to travel north together or south together; and at the table, two players of those characters discuss whether to have their PCs head north or head south in the imaginary world. In the fiction, the discussion involves considerations of reasons like what is likely to be found to the north or the south, both desirable and undesirable; and at the table, the discussion involves the same considerations. The reasons in both the imagined situation, and the real situation, are the same, and are predominantly instrumental.Even those sorts of discussion, though, can generate issues at the table. For instance, it's not absurd to think that two generals might spend hours discussing what is the best next move for their forces; or that two leaders of an investment firm might spend hours discussing what is the best way to invest $10 million. In either case, they might also call for additional evidence, expert reports, etc. But in a RPG, if the discussion goes on for more than 20 or 30 minutes it might be starting to outlive its welcome. And - given that there are often no "expert reports" to be had about the fiction - the notion of evidence and hence of reasons also doesn't really work the same way.And that's before we get to reasons that aren't really intellectual ones. For instance, consider the fairy-tale trope of the dubious figure who offers the protagonist magically tainted food or drink. In the fiction, the character may be famished, and/or parched, and so takes the food/drink and wolfs/gulps it down without stopping to think. At the table, the player is typically neither famished nor parched, and so the decision to have their PC wolf/gulp the food down is a decision about authorship, not about satisfying an appetite or a bodily demand.A lot of cases are similar - for instance, the players of a RPG aren't subjected to distracting sights, sounds and smells; don't have to actually endure the trek from one place of business to another if they don't wish to deal with a vendor's confusing patter; etc. OK. Most of the posters in this thread seem like they've done quite a bit of RPGing. So most of us have probably experienced what you're describing here, whether as players or GMs or both. I'm not sure what is meant to follow from it.And I don't see why you think that your bad experiences of play generalise to others. I mean, maybe the social rules in the games that you have played have the form of "this is funny, now laugh". But that's not how they work in the games that I play and have posted about.</blockquote>

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