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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 463823" data-attributes="member: 4937">"But Celebrim, the PC's are people just like NPC's are people."I never said that they weren't, and in fact will insist throughout that they be treated in the same way that NPC's are.  In fact, I'll even insist that monsters are characters too.But, I don't really see how that is the heart of this debate.The heart of this debate is 'should PC's start out as exceptional people in thier own right even at first level'.  If the average population is seventh level, it doesn't matter that the PC's have slightly better stats, they are still pretty sub-par.  Even a 5th level commoner has as an array of skills, saving throws, hit points, attack bonuses, and feats as good as or better than any member of a 1st level party.  A party of 5th level commoners, aristocrats, warriors, and experts (even assuming that the NPC population doesn't have many PC classed people) is at least as capable and often much more capable than a party of 1st level PCs.I admit that it is possible that the population in general doesn't want to bother itself cleaning out a tomb run with zombies, and hire some bunch of expendable types to do the job.   BUT, I also insist that if that is what is going on, it represent as marked shift in mentality of what an adventure is and what an adventurer is doing.  Instead of being a hero, the adventurer is reduced to a pest control specialist... and not a very necessary one at that.  Instead, they get the dirty job because no one else wants to be bothered.  The belong to the same class as rat catchers, for a tomb of zombies is no more threatening to the Duke's men than rats are to 1st level adventurers.If we mean that NPC's and PC's are the same things, it doesn't matter that the Orc has average stats, a 5th level warrior Orc is still well beyond the capabilities of any first level character, and a whole warband of them will snear at the minor threat a party of first level characters represent.Normally, in a module, the PC's are addressing a serious threat to someone's life and property and are trying to heroicly rectify the situation.  If the average NPC can legitimately look down upon the PC's, then it changes the whole character of thier actions.  Any threat that is a serious threat to a whole community of 5th level characters and thier higher level leaders is not a threat with which the PC's can legitimately cope.   It moves them from being the movers and shapers of thier society, to being followers, 'red shirts', spear carriers, and hangers-on.   No longer are they the communities champions right from the start, but they are the doers of minor deeds no one else can really be bothered to do.  For if the event really represent a threat to the Duke and his men, surely they will motivated to do something about it themselves and not trust thier life and property to someone as incompetant as the PC's.Ultimately, the decision to make 'average' something the PC's obtain at 5th or 7th level (considered mid-level in 1st edition and encompassing a large section of the average PC's career!) trivializes thier early career.  If average is meant to be 5th level, then I would certainly scale up the universe such that starting PC's were 5th level just as in Dark Sun, average was 3rd level and so were starting PC's.</blockquote>

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