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NPCs, and the poverty of the core books
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<blockquote data-quote="pawsplay" data-source="post: 9744943" data-attributes="member: 15538"><p>Whoa there. I didn't call anyone stupid, and I think it's very uncharitable to say something like that about people who are just starting out. A new player's ignorance is profound. Some people pick things up and find them obvious, other things may not be as obvious to as many people. I think it's fair, and realistic, to assume people only know what's on the page.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm going to disagree with that. If the Knight in the MM does Radiant damage with their weapon, I think that implies that foes called "knights" not uncommonly have access to some source of magical Radiant damage. Maybe they're junior varsity paladins, maybe that's just a temporarily blessing they have for the purpose of this battle, but something is definitely going on there. Does the Warrior Veteran shoot a heavy crossbow twice in a round? Well, clearly, experienced warriors can get off more than one bolt in a few seconds. The Spy can stab people a lot with poisoned weapons? Well, I guess combat poison is a thing.</p><p></p><p>If an NPC who is not legendary or unique can do something, and at a modest level of experience, I think it's fair to ask what kind of PC can do the same thing. Maybe it's simpler if the mage apprentice isn't juggling Fire Bolt and Chilling Touch and Magic Missile during battle, but it does imply something about the nature of the world they inhabit if they can endlessly churn out formidable Force damage, all day, at a range or in melee, with some kind of speed or power that can't be countered by other spellcasters.</p><p></p><p>Just another strand to this conversation: when I first got into 5E, I was under the impression that "monster" NPCs were for nameless thugs and combat-oriented lieutenants, and the occasional "boss fight" with an NPC who was individually tougher and more versatile than a PC of that level could hope to be, with unique capabilities. I thought fleshed-out NPCs would generally have something more like a PC stat block. I maintained that impression until several published adventures later, I noticed the NPCs never had PC-like stat blocks. "Hm," I said, hming to myself. I mostly used monster stat blocks in my games, but early on, I did have some NPC companions with PC stats. But somewhere along the way, it was decided NPC companions should have much simpler abilities, and double hit points.</p><p></p><p>5E characters are generally much simpler than 3e or 4e, so I don't see any reason 5E revised absolutely has to be the way it is. I think they could have used some page count to explain how to quickly generate a PC-type stat block with certain simplifications, and given an idea of what CR that would represent. I don't think NPC fighters have to be big blobs of hit points that make two attacks per round. Nor do I think it's helpful to new DMs to make them wildly improvise if a NPC changes out their gear. Like, if you hand a +1 longbow to a Warrior Veteran, they should be able to use that. But they don't do standard damage, and if you treat them like a PC but with no class abilities, it's probably a downgrade in capabilities.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pawsplay, post: 9744943, member: 15538"] Whoa there. I didn't call anyone stupid, and I think it's very uncharitable to say something like that about people who are just starting out. A new player's ignorance is profound. Some people pick things up and find them obvious, other things may not be as obvious to as many people. I think it's fair, and realistic, to assume people only know what's on the page. I'm going to disagree with that. If the Knight in the MM does Radiant damage with their weapon, I think that implies that foes called "knights" not uncommonly have access to some source of magical Radiant damage. Maybe they're junior varsity paladins, maybe that's just a temporarily blessing they have for the purpose of this battle, but something is definitely going on there. Does the Warrior Veteran shoot a heavy crossbow twice in a round? Well, clearly, experienced warriors can get off more than one bolt in a few seconds. The Spy can stab people a lot with poisoned weapons? Well, I guess combat poison is a thing. If an NPC who is not legendary or unique can do something, and at a modest level of experience, I think it's fair to ask what kind of PC can do the same thing. Maybe it's simpler if the mage apprentice isn't juggling Fire Bolt and Chilling Touch and Magic Missile during battle, but it does imply something about the nature of the world they inhabit if they can endlessly churn out formidable Force damage, all day, at a range or in melee, with some kind of speed or power that can't be countered by other spellcasters. Just another strand to this conversation: when I first got into 5E, I was under the impression that "monster" NPCs were for nameless thugs and combat-oriented lieutenants, and the occasional "boss fight" with an NPC who was individually tougher and more versatile than a PC of that level could hope to be, with unique capabilities. I thought fleshed-out NPCs would generally have something more like a PC stat block. I maintained that impression until several published adventures later, I noticed the NPCs never had PC-like stat blocks. "Hm," I said, hming to myself. I mostly used monster stat blocks in my games, but early on, I did have some NPC companions with PC stats. But somewhere along the way, it was decided NPC companions should have much simpler abilities, and double hit points. 5E characters are generally much simpler than 3e or 4e, so I don't see any reason 5E revised absolutely has to be the way it is. I think they could have used some page count to explain how to quickly generate a PC-type stat block with certain simplifications, and given an idea of what CR that would represent. I don't think NPC fighters have to be big blobs of hit points that make two attacks per round. Nor do I think it's helpful to new DMs to make them wildly improvise if a NPC changes out their gear. Like, if you hand a +1 longbow to a Warrior Veteran, they should be able to use that. But they don't do standard damage, and if you treat them like a PC but with no class abilities, it's probably a downgrade in capabilities. [/QUOTE]
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