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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6119492" data-attributes="member: 82106">What does this have to do with NPC Monsters having class levels? What stops you in 4e from doing this either? All that is needed is at most a race write-up. Even that is only marginally necessary, you can play most 'basically mundane' monsters as PCs without any real trouble. The main decision needing to be made is where ability score bonuses go. Having some racial perks is nice, but not mandatory. Of course 4e runs into the same logical issues with less mundane creatures that every edition has, mainly explaining why it is that your starting dragon doesn't have awesome AC, a huge breath weapon, and tons of hit points. No edition ever solved this or ever could. AD&D just ignored it, much like 4e. 3.x tried to solve it, but the whole 'level adjustment' thing was a disaster and STILL doesn't explain why my dragon PC is nothing like a real dragon numerically (or why he mysteriously seems to 'age' by killing orcs, etc, no explanation really works). Again though, how does this bear on monsters as monsters and not as PCs? Monsters need no rules for progression, they don't have to be assumed to be of any specific class (class is just a construct of the game mechanics, not part of the game world) etc. Certainly in 4e it was TRIVIAL to give a monster some sort of power (or just fluff) that associated them with whatever narrative you wished. If a monstrous NPC was to be depicted as a champion of evil you just gave him heavy armor and maybe a couple powers that were like the ones a PC Blackguard would get, perhaps. An NPC 'wizard' likewise can have a fireball, a magic missile, and a couple other spells, and his digs can be tricked out with a couple ritual effects. I never saw the need for the obsession with the notion that said NPC/Monster was "an XYZ level wizard", that's just a tool to be used to decide which wizardly goodies PCs get and how they get them.In any case, I don't see that 4e's approach really limited you, there were a LOT of monsters that were given race treatment. I mean right now in my weekday game I have a Goliath, a Minotaur (these have full PHB2/3 writeups and full feat selections), a Hengeyokai (also has a full writeup in Dragon 404, though the race lacks many feats), and a Kenku (this one is simply an MM entry with a brief writeup at the back, still perfectly viable and fun). Depending on just how obsessed the DM is with balanced PCs I can't see any real problem with less humanoid monsters like Centaurs, Aarokokra (or other basic fliers), aquatic humanoids, etc. as long as they fit within the campaign milieu and players don't try to be munchkins. IMHO 5e will be much the same, there won't NEED to be elaborate rules for mundane type monsters and elaborate rules for other types won't really help much.</blockquote>

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