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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sabriel" data-source="post: 3466391" data-attributes="member: 20348">In my excitement to discuss Null Shadows, I forgot I shouldn't have discussed their stats in the story thread. Thus moving the thread (hope I'm not just pushing the foot further in):While fun as an intellectual exercise and to spring on overconfident PCs <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> as both a GM and a player it discomfits me to have creatures with "absolute immunity to magic" - as a supernatural ability no less - be "created by foul magics and unholy rituals"... and furthermore despite being "unaffected by magic in any way, form or application" they can still target spellcasters and travel across planes through additional supernatural abilities?One solution is to change these abilities to extraordinary and change "created" to "called", and the first thing null shadows usually do is eat the conjurer(s). Even if the callee survives, many magic guilds would react with extreme prejudice to such an individual. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" />Also, summoned creatures - if null shadows can't be affected by them, what if you summon a spellcasting creature? The arcane attraction ability would then result in the magic having an effect! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Null Shadows are, from their own text,(a) "unaffected by magic in any way, form or application" - to the extent that they "cannot be harmed by magic weapons", this isn't just no benefit from the plusses, it's no damage at all!(b) have a special ability to pick out spellcasters and if so, attack only them(c) can pass through any magical barrier, e.g. a wall of forcePut an ordinary commoner and a summoned spellcaster in front of it. Which does it go for and why?If I use a wall of stone - such a wall is not magical, but it was brought into being by magic - can the Null Shadow walk through it too? Can a Null Shadow walk across a bridge formed via wall of stone? What about a bridge built a century ago from the rubble of a wall of stone? What if half the rubble was from a quarry?If I disintegrate the ground underneath a Null Shadow, does it fall? What if I'm using passwall instead? A portable hole?If I hit a Null Shadow with a sword, it takes damage. If I hit it with a sword+1, it takes no damage (does the sword pass through it? if it's literally totally unaffected...). Can it walk through a brick wall if the wall has had its hardness magically enhanced (a wall+1)?In some settings, the gods created the entire world. That involved magic. What happens?Maybe I'm fixating... this sort of thing probably keeps mages up at night <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />In that spirit, then: <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />* "It goes for the summoned spellcaster.  That it's unaffected by magic does not mean it's unable to identify a magically created being."So unaffected applies to interaction, not observation? Does this mean it can be potentially fooled by glamers and figments (obviously not phantasms and patterns, being mind-affecting)?* "It can't walk through the Wall of Stone.  Why?  The magic isn't residual. If you cast disintegrate beneath the creature, ultimately it's however the DM wants to play it, but I would say no, it doesn't fall.  It's a question of awareness." ... "turns to glass"Um, disintegrate would turn the floor to dust, leaving a 10ft deep non-magical pit, not to glass?But to go further, what about magic that employs non-magical attacks? If a Null Shadow can't pass through a wall of stone, and can(?) fall into the pit left behind by disintegrate, can it be hurt by an ordinary sword that is being wielded via telekinesis? Hurled by telekinesis?And to go further in the other direction, what about passwall? Can it make use of the magical passage? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> * "Does the +1 sword pass through it?  Yes, it does, if the weapon is judged to be inherently magical.  But it can't walk through a magically enhanced wall that's fundamentally just rock underneath."What is "inherently magical"? A 'standard sword+1' is a masterwork sword with a magical enhancement bonus (it gains +1 attack, +1 damage, +5 hardness, +10 hp, etc). If I make a wall+1, being a masterwork wall with a magical enhancement bonus (etc), then is it considered a magical barrier that a Null Shadow can pass through? Fundamentally a sword+1 is just metal underneath...?* "As the samurais say... you must consider this. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />"Heh, yes. This is one of those monster abilities where if you don't have all your ducks in a row, the players will want to pluck you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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