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<blockquote data-quote="totoro" data-source="post: 897410" data-attributes="member: 11939">Yes, an experienced swordsman should hand your butt to you if you aren't any good with a sword.&nbsp; That would not change with my rules.&nbsp; In fact, DEX still has relatively little to do with who will be more successful in melee.&nbsp; If you have a 16 DEX and the experienced swordsman has 10 DEX, you get 8 attacks at +0 (probably a miss), then -5 (probably a miss, but likely a fumble), then -10 (fumble about 1/2 the time), then -15 (fumble likely), then -20 (fumble very likely), and finally at -25 (again, fumble very likely).&nbsp; Since each fumble provokes an AoO, you are probably dead.&nbsp; If not, he gets an attack at +10/+5/+0 (none are likely to be fumbled), and saves a couple of attacks for AoO, in case you try to make all of your attacks.&nbsp; Note that with a DEX of 4, the experienced swordsman would hand you your butt even if your DEX were 25, though it would take him a lot longer (since you would have such a good AC).Try this mind experiment:&nbsp; There are 6 of you.&nbsp; None very good with a sword.&nbsp; You completely surround an experienced swordsman.&nbsp; Not a god, just someone who is pretty good (say, 5th level fighter, 16 STR, weapon focus, MW weapon for a +10 BAB).&nbsp; Don't you think you should have a chance?&nbsp; He can probably kill 2 of you/round with 3 attacks (saving 3 for AoO).&nbsp; If you are cautious, so you don't fumble, you might only get a couple of attacks each for a few hits total.&nbsp; Then he kills a couple more of you and the other 2 of you run away.&nbsp; If you are more aggressive, he might kill a couple of you with AoO, but only after you get your attacks, leaving 2 of you... OK, bad example, all 6 of you get handed your butts (how embarrasing).Another thought experiment:&nbsp; Against tougher opponents, the experienced swordsman will probably take fewer attacks, since fumbles become more probable with each successive strike.&nbsp; It just isn't worth swinging unless you have a reasonable chance to hit.In any case, you are wise to not want to implement this rule (yet).&nbsp; I'm still not sure I want to.&nbsp; There might be something broken somewhere.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="totoro, post: 897410, member: 11939"] Yes, an experienced swordsman should hand your butt to you if you aren't any good with a sword. That would not change with my rules. In fact, DEX still has relatively little to do with who will be more successful in melee. If you have a 16 DEX and the experienced swordsman has 10 DEX, you get 8 attacks at +0 (probably a miss), then -5 (probably a miss, but likely a fumble), then -10 (fumble about 1/2 the time), then -15 (fumble likely), then -20 (fumble very likely), and finally at -25 (again, fumble very likely). Since each fumble provokes an AoO, you are probably dead. If not, he gets an attack at +10/+5/+0 (none are likely to be fumbled), and saves a couple of attacks for AoO, in case you try to make all of your attacks. Note that with a DEX of 4, the experienced swordsman would hand you your butt even if your DEX were 25, though it would take him a lot longer (since you would have such a good AC). Try this mind experiment: There are 6 of you. None very good with a sword. You completely surround an experienced swordsman. Not a god, just someone who is pretty good (say, 5th level fighter, 16 STR, weapon focus, MW weapon for a +10 BAB). Don't you think you should have a chance? He can probably kill 2 of you/round with 3 attacks (saving 3 for AoO). If you are cautious, so you don't fumble, you might only get a couple of attacks each for a few hits total. Then he kills a couple more of you and the other 2 of you run away. If you are more aggressive, he might kill a couple of you with AoO, but only after you get your attacks, leaving 2 of you... OK, bad example, all 6 of you get handed your butts (how embarrasing). Another thought experiment: Against tougher opponents, the experienced swordsman will probably take fewer attacks, since fumbles become more probable with each successive strike. It just isn't worth swinging unless you have a reasonable chance to hit. In any case, you are wise to not want to implement this rule (yet). I'm still not sure I want to. There might be something broken somewhere. [/QUOTE]

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