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<blockquote data-quote="Cryptos" data-source="post: 4587614" data-attributes="member: 58439"><p>I'd say that you're probably right in thinking that Promethian's quest for humanity would seem like a familiar path for this player that dealt a lot with Humanity loss and morality systems and you'd be right to avoid it for that reason. </p><p></p><p>Depending on the characters played and the focus you choose, he'd probably actually have a better time playing Vampire the Requiem now than Promethian. Part of V:tR is that you're not going to get back your humanity. Golconda is considered a myth and there aren't any solid rules for it in the core of the game (and throughout most of its supplements.) You don't know where vampires came from - covenants either have alternate theories (which are probably all wrong) or just don't care - so mitigating the curse of Cain's children is out, also. The game itself doesn't even try to answer what Vampires really are in the way that oWoD did.</p><p></p><p>While V:tM was more about holding on to humanity, V:tR is more about trying to keep the Beast under control. You're a monster, deal with it, but don't let the monster have complete control. You'll never be human again. At best, the Ordo Dracul knows some tricks to make the Beast lay down and roll over, but they don't do it to try to become more human, but to master the essence of being a Vamp.</p><p></p><p>But Promethian is about trying to regain humanity, and it is spelled out in game terms. It's more Masquerade in many ways than Vampire: the Requiem is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, there's no Ascension War per se and definately no Technocracy.</p><p></p><p>Instead, in a default Awakening setting, you'll be dealing with people who believe that Lost Atlantis is the 'homeland' for magic, even though none of them really know whether it ever existed or how, when and where it existed; as well as enemies who are primarily either (1) driven mad by magic; (2) think magic is evil and must be destroyed, even though they themselves are magical; or (3) think that magic must be strictly controlled and those that don't fall in line with the Exarchs must be eliminated. </p><p></p><p>But that's only if you want Mage vs. Mage antagonism. There's also plenty of coverage of Mage vs. Ghosts, Mage vs. Spirits, Mage vs. Astral beings, and Mage vs. Weird S***.</p><p></p><p>I'd say that Mage is no more or less complex than the other systems now, with the caveat that it still requires the most knowledge of the system from the players and ST to use it well. It's not any harder to understand Magic than it is to understand most other supernaturals, but it is still the most flexible and dynamic, and unless you make an effort to understand it, you'll be stuck using the effects described in the book.</p><p></p><p>There was a thread here last week about Mage, and several of us offered up cheat sheets and other tools for someone looking to run it. I put up my one-page summaries of (1) what mages can do, both in general and with certain Arcana and (2) what you can do with each dot in an Arcana; along with my version of Mage morality, which I feel is more morally intuitive and in line with the rest of the WoD.</p><p></p><p>So, in essence, it can still be the most complex but only if everyone doesn't make an effort to pick up the rules. If they bother to learn how to use magic, it's no more (or not much more) complicated than any other WoD system. But it's nowhere near as complicated as Ascension was compared to the other oWoD systems.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Werewolf is probably the most like it's predecessor of all the nWoD books. There are differences, but it will still feel like "old" Werewolf.</p><p></p><p>Changeling is widely regarded as a fantastic game, but I have to be honest and say I haven't done that much with it.</p><p> </p><p>If you're looking for Dresden, I'd say go with Mage. If you wanted to actually make a Dresden setting, with a few tweaks you could probably do so with Mage. If you're just looking for the feel in mood and theme of Dresden and don't mind the Mage cosmology and "history", Mage has already got the theme and mood of Dresden.</p><p></p><p>The best thing about New World of Darkness is that you've got to keep in mind that all of these origins, all of this history about "Father Wolf" and "Atlantis" and "Dracul" and "Longinus" is just a story. No one really knows. Mages can't prove there was an Atlantis. Werewolves have been howling about Father Wolf for centuries, but no one was really there at the dawn of time. No vampire is old enough, or old and sane enough, to remember how they came about.</p><p></p><p>You can change the metaplot and history and terminology however you like. Unlike oWod, they just don't matter all that much. </p><p></p><p>If you want to start out with a hunter-style (small 's') mortals game, probably the easiest way to get the PCs to get their supernatural freak on during the course of the game would be to have them Awaken to magic as they realize that the world isn't what they thought it was. Awakening is probably the easiest (and least damaging to core character concept) way to become supernatural. Werewolf would involve discovering that all the PCs are coincidentally descended from certain bloodlines. Vampire - well, you know this one, you've got to die. Changeling, your characters have to be abducted to Arcadia and off camera they're in slavery to the Fey until they are there long enough to change. Promethian, they all die and then their parts are stitched together with lots of other dead people's parts, and they're not that person any more. Mortal character to Promethian character conversion would be downright destructive, it's just not built for that sort of game.</p><p></p><p>Mage is the least damaging to an existing character in terms of becoming supernatural during the game.</p><p></p><p>If you're looking for more online discussion of WoD, I'd recommend <a href="http://www.shadownessence.com" target="_blank">www.shadownessence.com</a>. They're more like the ENWorld of WoD. They tend to be friendlier, more helpful, and more openminded than the people on the official forums at White Wolf's site. If you were to want to discuss an alternate way of doing something on WW's site, you're going to get flamed. On S-n-E, they're more likely to consider the merits of the idea on its own than to tear it down to protect some perceived canon. I sometimes think the best PR move that White Wolf could do is to get rid of their official forums. It's not generally a happy place for newcomers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cryptos, post: 4587614, member: 58439"] I'd say that you're probably right in thinking that Promethian's quest for humanity would seem like a familiar path for this player that dealt a lot with Humanity loss and morality systems and you'd be right to avoid it for that reason. Depending on the characters played and the focus you choose, he'd probably actually have a better time playing Vampire the Requiem now than Promethian. Part of V:tR is that you're not going to get back your humanity. Golconda is considered a myth and there aren't any solid rules for it in the core of the game (and throughout most of its supplements.) You don't know where vampires came from - covenants either have alternate theories (which are probably all wrong) or just don't care - so mitigating the curse of Cain's children is out, also. The game itself doesn't even try to answer what Vampires really are in the way that oWoD did. While V:tM was more about holding on to humanity, V:tR is more about trying to keep the Beast under control. You're a monster, deal with it, but don't let the monster have complete control. You'll never be human again. At best, the Ordo Dracul knows some tricks to make the Beast lay down and roll over, but they don't do it to try to become more human, but to master the essence of being a Vamp. But Promethian is about trying to regain humanity, and it is spelled out in game terms. It's more Masquerade in many ways than Vampire: the Requiem is. Well, there's no Ascension War per se and definately no Technocracy. Instead, in a default Awakening setting, you'll be dealing with people who believe that Lost Atlantis is the 'homeland' for magic, even though none of them really know whether it ever existed or how, when and where it existed; as well as enemies who are primarily either (1) driven mad by magic; (2) think magic is evil and must be destroyed, even though they themselves are magical; or (3) think that magic must be strictly controlled and those that don't fall in line with the Exarchs must be eliminated. But that's only if you want Mage vs. Mage antagonism. There's also plenty of coverage of Mage vs. Ghosts, Mage vs. Spirits, Mage vs. Astral beings, and Mage vs. Weird S***. I'd say that Mage is no more or less complex than the other systems now, with the caveat that it still requires the most knowledge of the system from the players and ST to use it well. It's not any harder to understand Magic than it is to understand most other supernaturals, but it is still the most flexible and dynamic, and unless you make an effort to understand it, you'll be stuck using the effects described in the book. There was a thread here last week about Mage, and several of us offered up cheat sheets and other tools for someone looking to run it. I put up my one-page summaries of (1) what mages can do, both in general and with certain Arcana and (2) what you can do with each dot in an Arcana; along with my version of Mage morality, which I feel is more morally intuitive and in line with the rest of the WoD. So, in essence, it can still be the most complex but only if everyone doesn't make an effort to pick up the rules. If they bother to learn how to use magic, it's no more (or not much more) complicated than any other WoD system. But it's nowhere near as complicated as Ascension was compared to the other oWoD systems. Werewolf is probably the most like it's predecessor of all the nWoD books. There are differences, but it will still feel like "old" Werewolf. Changeling is widely regarded as a fantastic game, but I have to be honest and say I haven't done that much with it. If you're looking for Dresden, I'd say go with Mage. If you wanted to actually make a Dresden setting, with a few tweaks you could probably do so with Mage. If you're just looking for the feel in mood and theme of Dresden and don't mind the Mage cosmology and "history", Mage has already got the theme and mood of Dresden. The best thing about New World of Darkness is that you've got to keep in mind that all of these origins, all of this history about "Father Wolf" and "Atlantis" and "Dracul" and "Longinus" is just a story. No one really knows. Mages can't prove there was an Atlantis. Werewolves have been howling about Father Wolf for centuries, but no one was really there at the dawn of time. No vampire is old enough, or old and sane enough, to remember how they came about. You can change the metaplot and history and terminology however you like. Unlike oWod, they just don't matter all that much. If you want to start out with a hunter-style (small 's') mortals game, probably the easiest way to get the PCs to get their supernatural freak on during the course of the game would be to have them Awaken to magic as they realize that the world isn't what they thought it was. Awakening is probably the easiest (and least damaging to core character concept) way to become supernatural. Werewolf would involve discovering that all the PCs are coincidentally descended from certain bloodlines. Vampire - well, you know this one, you've got to die. Changeling, your characters have to be abducted to Arcadia and off camera they're in slavery to the Fey until they are there long enough to change. Promethian, they all die and then their parts are stitched together with lots of other dead people's parts, and they're not that person any more. Mortal character to Promethian character conversion would be downright destructive, it's just not built for that sort of game. Mage is the least damaging to an existing character in terms of becoming supernatural during the game. If you're looking for more online discussion of WoD, I'd recommend [URL="http://www.shadownessence.com"]www.shadownessence.com[/URL]. They're more like the ENWorld of WoD. They tend to be friendlier, more helpful, and more openminded than the people on the official forums at White Wolf's site. If you were to want to discuss an alternate way of doing something on WW's site, you're going to get flamed. On S-n-E, they're more likely to consider the merits of the idea on its own than to tear it down to protect some perceived canon. I sometimes think the best PR move that White Wolf could do is to get rid of their official forums. It's not generally a happy place for newcomers. [/QUOTE]
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