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Oath of Vengeance Paladin?
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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6773487" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>First, the fact that the OoV guy follows his tenets to the letter does <strong>not</strong> prevent his alignment from matching his behaviour. Nor does the fact that he <em>believes</em> he is doing good while he is in fact doing evil.</p><p></p><p>Second, the fact that he is evil, or has become evil through his actions, in no way impacts his class abilities as game mechanics. There is no way to remove his powers because of his alignment, and you can only take away his powers based on his actions if those actions go against his tenets. Since he is following his tenets, he keeps his powers, whether he is evil or not.</p><p></p><p>Third, him being evil is not 'solved' by changing his game mechanics. It is 'solved' for him in exactly the same kind of ways as it would be for anyone else doing such evil: the only way evil can flourish is if good men do nothing. The other inhabitants of the world will not stand for his evil! They will view him as a misguided terrorist, and they cannot know about his class' game mechanics and do not care how he justifies himself. If he tortures kiddies, they won't care that he has an insane excuse!</p><p></p><p>Imagine that the police burst in on a guy torturing a kid, guns drawn. "Put the knife down and step away from the kid!"</p><p></p><p>"Oh, it's okay officer! I'm only torturing the kid because he <em>might</em> know the whereabouts of an object which <em>might</em> help me <em>find the bastards who killed my tortoise!</em>"</p><p></p><p>"Ah, terribly sorry sir! We didn't realise you had a good reason! Carry on then."</p><p></p><p>You're looking for a written rule to take his powers away. It's the wrong search; it would be the wrong solution.</p><p></p><p>The solution is simple to state: actions have consequences. The actions of the character in the game world should have the logical consequences in the game world, not on his character sheet.</p><p></p><p>If an assassin randomly murdered every passer-by he saw, with the excuse that he was given a silver piece in order to do so, this is not a problem with the way the class is written!</p><p></p><p>If a thief steals from his friends, with the excuse that it says 'thief' on his character sheet, this is not a problem with the way the class is written!</p><p></p><p>If an OoV paladin tortures kids on the flimsiest of pretexts, with the excuse that he believes alcohol is a greater evil than child torture, <em>this is not a problem with the way the class is written!</em></p><p></p><p>Let him do evil and keep his powers, and then let the world react believably. In this case, 'believably' entails them hunting for the paladin and bringing him to justice for his crimes.</p><p></p><p>Another thing: if you have three characters who want to hunt the BBEG that you wrote an adventure about, and one player who deliberately creates a PC who doesn't want to do that, then why are they still with him? They should part as friends, and you as DM should allow the OoV to ride off into the sunset and allow his player to create a new PC who <em>does</em> want to go on the same quest as the others. DMs are under no obligation to write adventures for those who don't want to go on the adventure you wrote.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, you might want to focus on this new, unexpected turn of events. If everyone is enjoying themselves, it's not a problem. You seem to be frustrated because the OoV seems to be 'getting away' with doing evil, but he is only getting away with it because <em>you</em> are allowing it, by not having the world react appropriately to this very real threat to their innocent, law-abiding citizens. Get your finger out and <em>do</em> something about it!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 6773487, member: 6799649"] First, the fact that the OoV guy follows his tenets to the letter does [B]not[/B] prevent his alignment from matching his behaviour. Nor does the fact that he [I]believes[/I] he is doing good while he is in fact doing evil. Second, the fact that he is evil, or has become evil through his actions, in no way impacts his class abilities as game mechanics. There is no way to remove his powers because of his alignment, and you can only take away his powers based on his actions if those actions go against his tenets. Since he is following his tenets, he keeps his powers, whether he is evil or not. Third, him being evil is not 'solved' by changing his game mechanics. It is 'solved' for him in exactly the same kind of ways as it would be for anyone else doing such evil: the only way evil can flourish is if good men do nothing. The other inhabitants of the world will not stand for his evil! They will view him as a misguided terrorist, and they cannot know about his class' game mechanics and do not care how he justifies himself. If he tortures kiddies, they won't care that he has an insane excuse! Imagine that the police burst in on a guy torturing a kid, guns drawn. "Put the knife down and step away from the kid!" "Oh, it's okay officer! I'm only torturing the kid because he [I]might[/I] know the whereabouts of an object which [I]might[/I] help me [I]find the bastards who killed my tortoise![/I]" "Ah, terribly sorry sir! We didn't realise you had a good reason! Carry on then." You're looking for a written rule to take his powers away. It's the wrong search; it would be the wrong solution. The solution is simple to state: actions have consequences. The actions of the character in the game world should have the logical consequences in the game world, not on his character sheet. If an assassin randomly murdered every passer-by he saw, with the excuse that he was given a silver piece in order to do so, this is not a problem with the way the class is written! If a thief steals from his friends, with the excuse that it says 'thief' on his character sheet, this is not a problem with the way the class is written! If an OoV paladin tortures kids on the flimsiest of pretexts, with the excuse that he believes alcohol is a greater evil than child torture, [I]this is not a problem with the way the class is written![/I] Let him do evil and keep his powers, and then let the world react believably. In this case, 'believably' entails them hunting for the paladin and bringing him to justice for his crimes. Another thing: if you have three characters who want to hunt the BBEG that you wrote an adventure about, and one player who deliberately creates a PC who doesn't want to do that, then why are they still with him? They should part as friends, and you as DM should allow the OoV to ride off into the sunset and allow his player to create a new PC who [I]does[/I] want to go on the same quest as the others. DMs are under no obligation to write adventures for those who don't want to go on the adventure you wrote. On the other hand, you might want to focus on this new, unexpected turn of events. If everyone is enjoying themselves, it's not a problem. You seem to be frustrated because the OoV seems to be 'getting away' with doing evil, but he is only getting away with it because [I]you[/I] are allowing it, by not having the world react appropriately to this very real threat to their innocent, law-abiding citizens. Get your finger out and [I]do[/I] something about it! [/QUOTE]
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