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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MoutonRustique" data-source="post: 6473934" data-attributes="member: 22362">For my 2cp.I cannot accept arguments such as : "a dragon would consider humanoids insects and so stay put when he is obviously going to die." From my perspective, I consider insects to be insects but you'll never see me handle a mix of angry spiders, scorpions, red ants or tze tze flies with my bare hands (yes, I know, spiders and scorpions are arachnids, not insects...)Adventurers are freaking painful to dragons - those arrows/swords/etc hurt! Elsewise, they would deal negligible damage - which they do not.If creatures require DM intervention to be defeatable, then I am saddened : as a player, I would not feel a sense of victory (the DM let me win), and as a DM I face the inverse position of having to either low-ball to my players or "loose" the game by "winning" (that's a loose-loose in my book).I'm fine with dragons becoming plot devices, as opposed to combat adversaries - but then I'd prefer they be explicitly treated as such. Many people have brought up the idea of "defeating" their lair actions - perhaps some suggestions on manners to accomplish that would be helpful. A form of "skill challenge" or "standard" minor preliminary minor quests? Or something else?Intelligent and powerful foes have always been a difficult aspect of RPGs - in a way they can often turn the game into a form of "beat the DM", which is not a form of play I like in an rpg session.If the game prohibits reasonable desired outcomes, then that becomes a problem. Maybe not a HUGE one requiring shirt-ripping and chest-banging, but a problem none the less. In this case, it looks like it is a problem worthy of address.</blockquote>

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