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General Tabletop Discussion
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Observations on matching "One vs. Many" combat mechanics to cinematic combat
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7554615" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Yes, you have it wrong.</p><p></p><p>The GM is constrained as to what danger can be advanced by the situation. If the Volley is a 7-9 and the player chooses a danger, that cannot be damage -- it must be an escalation of the scene that is a new danger, not a resolution of damage. Now, if the player rolls a 6-, then, yes, that can be damage, but it'll be one foe's damage, not all of them. Foes in DW don't have actions of their own, they can only make moves if the player rolls indicate that the GM can make a move against the players, in which case using a monster move is allowable.</p><p></p><p>The GM side for DW is constrained by the current fiction -- anything they do must adhere to the already established fiction -- or they must use a move to change the fiction. If the GM wants to add foes as a complication, they can, but that's a full danger/failure resolution step and you'll have to wait for the next to do anything with the new foes.</p><p></p><p>I'm personally much more familiar with Blades in the Dark, where the play is slightly different. In Blades, the player declares an action and chooses which skill applies. The GM then sets the position and effect of the action based on that. Position gives the player an idea of what's at stake -- a controlled position means consequences will be minor, normal means normal, and desperate means consequences can be severe. Effect is what the player can expect to realize from a success. To relate to the above, a character shooting from a strong position into a mob of foes may have a controlled position but a limited effect -- there may be many of them and a few shots won't change the situation. The player can then expend resources to improve effect, maybe by pushing or by using equipment suited to the action. The roll is made and the results flow from there. A player that's fallen into a mob of weak bad guys that tries to Legolas their way out with superior equipment and playbook moves can have a desperate position but a great effect -- and a mixed roll may result in their killing many and driving off the remainder but suffering wounds (which are no joke in Blades) in the process.</p><p></p><p>But, through it all, there are strong requirements on the GM as to what they should be presenting to the players -- everything must flow from the fiction so Volleying at a few goblins should never result in you being turned into a pincushion in one roll. The player has a good grasp of what's at stake because it's already apparent. If something new happens, it's because the GM uses a move to change up the situation and establish it in the fiction. If a player decides to volley against a numerically superior foe armed with their own missile weapons and in strong positions while standing in the open, then the results should be apparent and will flow from the fiction.</p><p></p><p>To be fair, your not grasping the structure of play and the boundaries of it are probably the most common misconception of PbtA play and usually comes from a shallow reading of the SRD material while trying to understand it in the framework of D&D. In D&D, the DM has sole authority over the fiction, but this isn't true in PbtA games. The fiction is a fetter on the GM, and the players have great scope to play with and establish fiction. In other words, to evaluate a situation in PbtA, you need the scene setup in full to do any sort of analysis, because the constraints on the GM and players will be established there. Volley on it's own isn't a good analysis point -- you HAVE to have the situation in which it's being used to analyze how it works out. All you can say absent that is that the GM will be limited to making a single move in response to a failure/partial success and that move must tie into the existing fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7554615, member: 16814"] Yes, you have it wrong. The GM is constrained as to what danger can be advanced by the situation. If the Volley is a 7-9 and the player chooses a danger, that cannot be damage -- it must be an escalation of the scene that is a new danger, not a resolution of damage. Now, if the player rolls a 6-, then, yes, that can be damage, but it'll be one foe's damage, not all of them. Foes in DW don't have actions of their own, they can only make moves if the player rolls indicate that the GM can make a move against the players, in which case using a monster move is allowable. The GM side for DW is constrained by the current fiction -- anything they do must adhere to the already established fiction -- or they must use a move to change the fiction. If the GM wants to add foes as a complication, they can, but that's a full danger/failure resolution step and you'll have to wait for the next to do anything with the new foes. I'm personally much more familiar with Blades in the Dark, where the play is slightly different. In Blades, the player declares an action and chooses which skill applies. The GM then sets the position and effect of the action based on that. Position gives the player an idea of what's at stake -- a controlled position means consequences will be minor, normal means normal, and desperate means consequences can be severe. Effect is what the player can expect to realize from a success. To relate to the above, a character shooting from a strong position into a mob of foes may have a controlled position but a limited effect -- there may be many of them and a few shots won't change the situation. The player can then expend resources to improve effect, maybe by pushing or by using equipment suited to the action. The roll is made and the results flow from there. A player that's fallen into a mob of weak bad guys that tries to Legolas their way out with superior equipment and playbook moves can have a desperate position but a great effect -- and a mixed roll may result in their killing many and driving off the remainder but suffering wounds (which are no joke in Blades) in the process. But, through it all, there are strong requirements on the GM as to what they should be presenting to the players -- everything must flow from the fiction so Volleying at a few goblins should never result in you being turned into a pincushion in one roll. The player has a good grasp of what's at stake because it's already apparent. If something new happens, it's because the GM uses a move to change up the situation and establish it in the fiction. If a player decides to volley against a numerically superior foe armed with their own missile weapons and in strong positions while standing in the open, then the results should be apparent and will flow from the fiction. To be fair, your not grasping the structure of play and the boundaries of it are probably the most common misconception of PbtA play and usually comes from a shallow reading of the SRD material while trying to understand it in the framework of D&D. In D&D, the DM has sole authority over the fiction, but this isn't true in PbtA games. The fiction is a fetter on the GM, and the players have great scope to play with and establish fiction. In other words, to evaluate a situation in PbtA, you need the scene setup in full to do any sort of analysis, because the constraints on the GM and players will be established there. Volley on it's own isn't a good analysis point -- you HAVE to have the situation in which it's being used to analyze how it works out. All you can say absent that is that the GM will be limited to making a single move in response to a failure/partial success and that move must tie into the existing fiction. [/QUOTE]
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