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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 6330281" data-attributes="member: 23484">3 and 6. It looks like 3 might constitute the minimum intelligence for being trained, obeying orders (cf. Ochre Jelly with Int 2). But skeletons clearly have the ability to think. This is my instinct too, independent of any setting details; i.e. it's the type of Necromancy I would want. I think it's not what we're being given, though, and I think this is an important distinction to make. Any arguments based on the real world skip over the element of magical fantasy that exists in the world, where all the physics and metaphysics can be re-written in an office in Seattle during an afternoon.Anyone concerned about the mistreatment of the dead should go back and read the Necromancer rules in the very first play test pack -- it was truly appalling, in which a soul of a combat victim was captured and used up in exchange for a single advantage roll. In a fictional world where we know souls and gods exist, it represented an incredible violation -- the annihilation of another soul -- for the most minor benefit. We're past this, but we still lack a consistent set of necromancy rules. Falling Icicle's take is completely consistent, even if it differs form the real world attitudes to the dead (where the existence of souls and gods lacks the same degree of external proof that exists in the fictional setting).  And if the fantasy world had the same uncertainties about all life and existence as permeated antiquity, this would be relevant. Sure, many will want the fantasy world to share these values; that's fine.  But again, the fiction that we devise at the game table derives from the rules given, and those rules are inconsistent. Here's some takes that attempt to do just that -- use the rules to explain the metaphysics. I still can't help but feel there's still an inconsistency in these. If we do draw these conclusions and explain why necromancy is evil, then surely it has to apply to all necromancy. Not just animating the dead, but everything from Spare the Dying to Astral Projection. That, too, makes for a compelling fantasy world -- one where the use of negative energy, inimical as it is to all life, is inherently evil, and that means that some spells, even those that appear innocuous, are psych ally corrupting. (Note, this is not an argument to rebrand the spells -- I actually think all healing spells should fall under this rubric, since they are using energy from the positive/negative planes. That's just sidestepping the problem. But it seems to remain unanswered. Previous discussions on this topic have fallen back on the word necromancy; that's sophistry, though -- it's not the name that's relevant, it's the manipulation of life/death magic.)</blockquote>

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