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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 6041559" data-attributes="member: 50304">No. You're missing the reference.As the war-game origins of the Fighting Man and Magician archetypes go, they were the guys that existed to do one thing - kill other units with swords or sorcery respectively.The Priest and Rogue archetypes are arguably mutations of those original, one-dimensional job roles. They do more than just make the guys on the other side stop living. They get a special niche the Fighter and Wizard don't get, but the trade-off is they aren't as "Dead Killee."They aren't supposed to be inferior overall. It's merely a mechanism of trade-offs."I can't out-damage the Fighter" != "I can never do anything better than the fighter." Conflating the two is a Straw Man Argument.Again, prior to 3.0 the Thief had one shot at backstabbing - if he was lucky - and was terrible in the fight otherwise compared to where he is today. It was never the primary function that made the Thief special or useful to the party. Frankly, as a much as I love 4E & Essentials, the Rogue really lost a lot of his character becoming the ideal striker, and that poor Thief has been reduced to little more than but a flanking-based damage bucket, and that's a crying shame.And I don't mean to say that the Rogue's bonus for hitting someone with advantage should just be near-fighter damage vs deadly strike. Personally, I'd like to see the Rogue get his Expertise dice refunded if he uses Sneak Attack with Advantage - that way he can do something else with them like spring attack, tumbling dodge, or maybe some sort of hamstring / blinding / poisoning maneuver.Why are 3rd level Cleric spells that deal damage strictly inferior to 3rd level Wizard spells that deal damage? Because the Wizard is balanced with higher weight towards casting damaging spells that the Cleric, while Wizard can't use armor, most weapons, or cast healing spell.This isn't 4E. The Rogue is not a Striker class with the Fighter being a Defender. The Fighter is the Best At Fighting. The Rogue is an also-ran in that category, not walking wood-chipper of 4E. In exchange he has an extra background, unique abilities, and his own exclusive maneuvers. Not inferior on the whole, just differently weighted. Different is about trade offs. If you don't get worse at something to get better at something else there's a problem.That's a non-sequitor, but I'll address the second part anyway. Within a giving classes maneuvers list it would be ideal if there were no obvious red herrings and trap choices. Even with perfect parity, though, there are going to be better or worse choices depending on what you want to do. In that sense you could pick the "wrong" maneuver, certainly - and that's a good thing.- Marty Lund</blockquote>

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