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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 9253039" data-attributes="member: 6785785">No, I was looking at the below bits.I'm specifically talking about it as a collaborative process. I find that point of immutability to be when things are introduced into play. Until then, I don't want to commit too strongly to anything because I don't want to deny cool ideas just to stay committed. What does that matter? Do we really need to discuss what makes a protagonist and then how the title of a movie doesn't affect that? Until the GM decides that those items are conventions, too, right? No nobles in this game! No criminals! No folk heroes! No anything that makes your character interesting and unique! You have to wait until I, the benevolent GM, deign to give you the details with which you can engage!(Now we're starting to get into caricature!) I believe that is a limited way of viewing things, one that assumes that other characters can't have things just as interesting about them. I don't know where you got any of this math. Seems made up. Again, I'm advocating for collaboration. If there are legit problems with anything that's proposed, then they need to be worked out. I think the main difference between what I'm saying and what others are saying is that I'm including the GM's ideas and proposals as well as the players. There are many such stories because the GM hasn't yet invented the things that the players want to engage with, and the main paradigm of play in many games is for the GM to have predetermined everything. I literally took what you said, and just applied it to the GM and setting in the same way you applied it to players and characters. I don't think it's contrarian at all... I don't disagree with what you said, I simply added another related idea. Do you think what I said was wrong? Sure, but what's the reason to play in a world without magic? What are the play opportunities about this world? What's it supposed to inspire in the players as far as their characters? Very often the reason seems to amount to "because that's what the GM wants/proposed/has prepared". If this is an acceptable answer to some, then so be it. For me, it's not acceptable. I used to do things this way... and now I prefer not to, and I believe that my game has benefitted from that decision. So my question and much of what I have said in this thread is about pushing back against this impulse, which seems to be, for many, the default. That the GM decides these things and that's just how it is, and the players need to accept it, or else they're being problematic.</blockquote>

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