Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Of Fighters and Sammiches
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="CleverNickName" data-source="post: 6031622" data-attributes="member: 50987"><p>Saying that it fails for me is a bit of an overstatement. It is a good class, and it is fun to play, and it seems more or less balanced for the system it was written in. And maybe I'm speaking a different language, or maybe my glasses are indeed nostalgia-colored.</p><p></p><p>From the Fighter Design Goals (that I linked to in my original post, back in April), I got the feeling that the 5E fighter will be very retro, more like the BECM and 2E fighters of yore. "Other classes will have nifty tricks, but not the fighter," it seems to say. "This one doesn't focus on magic."</p><p></p><p>To me, it sounded like they were describing a fighter that would be very close to the BECM fighter. So when I rolled up a 5E fighter for the first time (I am usually the DM, so this was my first chance to playtest the new rules as a player), I expected it to have more of a BECM feel. Instead, it felt more like a rebuilt 3rd Edition fighter. It's kind of hard to describe it. The 5E fighter has a more modern feel...it seems a bit more "fiddly" or "freestyle" than the design goals implied it would be.</p><p></p><p>That's not to say it's a bad thing; I DM a 3.5E game at the moment and I enjoy it a great deal. Mostly I think the problem is with my own expectations, and my interpretation of the design goals for the class...and as some of the more recent comments in this thread have pointed out, this is completely my fault. Mike Mearls explained what their plan was for the class, and I obviously interpreted it differently from what he intended. When he wrote "You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with overwhelming skill," I didn't imagine a new dice mechanic. I imagined weapon mastery.</p><p></p><p>-----</p><p></p><p>This seems to be happening a lot in 5th Edition, now that I think about it. This is not just about building another edition of the game; this is about changing assumptions of the game. (And as far as I am concerned, this is the right way to go.) After all, there cannot be a single, unifying edition of D&D if everyone looks at hit points (or clerics, or longswords, or whatever) and sees something different. In order to bring all gamers together, they first must get everyone to agree on at least the fundamentals. Fundamentals, like what a fighter does with a sword. What is and isn't a "super power" or "magic." What dice should and should not be used for. That sort of thing.</p><p></p><p>I'm not comfortable with this, but I can't deny that this is what needs to happen. D&D has some pretty stiff competition out there...not just from Pathfinder, 3PPs, and countless retro-clone companies, but from itself as well: older editions of the game are still being bought, sold, and traded in bookstores and all over the Internet. They have to be accommodating and cutting-edge at the same time. And if they could do that without changing anything, well, they would already be done.</p><p></p><p>Nobody orders a simple turkey & swiss anymore...everyone wants gluten-free, everyone wants low-carb, everyone wants a build-your-own smorgassboard. It's nobody's fault, really, and it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. The deli has no choice but to change its menu to keep up with the times. Sure, they can make custom orders for their favorite customers for a little while, but eventually they will have to switch suppliers or maybe get new kitchen equipment, and they simply won't be able to give you that same old sandwich anymore. When that moment comes, I can either (a) order something else, (b) stand around and complain to nobody, or (c) make my own sandwiches at home.</p><p></p><p>Well, I've done the "stand around complaining to nobody" part. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I'll probably make my own sandwiches at home for a while (until I remember how dry they were), and then I will come back and try one of those new-fangled "flat bread wraps" that all the kids are talking about.</p><p></p><p>5th Edition cannot be a BECM clone, no matter how much I want it to be. So maybe I was a bit harsh with my critique of the 5th Edition fighter. It isn't what I was expecting, it isn't what I would have designed, and it doesn't play the way I would prefer it to. But it <u>is</u> exactly what the game needs: something for old and new gamers to rally around (provided both are willing to overlook a few things), and a showcase for the new combat mechanics.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CleverNickName, post: 6031622, member: 50987"] Saying that it fails for me is a bit of an overstatement. It is a good class, and it is fun to play, and it seems more or less balanced for the system it was written in. And maybe I'm speaking a different language, or maybe my glasses are indeed nostalgia-colored. From the Fighter Design Goals (that I linked to in my original post, back in April), I got the feeling that the 5E fighter will be very retro, more like the BECM and 2E fighters of yore. "Other classes will have nifty tricks, but not the fighter," it seems to say. "This one doesn't focus on magic." To me, it sounded like they were describing a fighter that would be very close to the BECM fighter. So when I rolled up a 5E fighter for the first time (I am usually the DM, so this was my first chance to playtest the new rules as a player), I expected it to have more of a BECM feel. Instead, it felt more like a rebuilt 3rd Edition fighter. It's kind of hard to describe it. The 5E fighter has a more modern feel...it seems a bit more "fiddly" or "freestyle" than the design goals implied it would be. That's not to say it's a bad thing; I DM a 3.5E game at the moment and I enjoy it a great deal. Mostly I think the problem is with my own expectations, and my interpretation of the design goals for the class...and as some of the more recent comments in this thread have pointed out, this is completely my fault. Mike Mearls explained what their plan was for the class, and I obviously interpreted it differently from what he intended. When he wrote "You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with overwhelming skill," I didn't imagine a new dice mechanic. I imagined weapon mastery. ----- This seems to be happening a lot in 5th Edition, now that I think about it. This is not just about building another edition of the game; this is about changing assumptions of the game. (And as far as I am concerned, this is the right way to go.) After all, there cannot be a single, unifying edition of D&D if everyone looks at hit points (or clerics, or longswords, or whatever) and sees something different. In order to bring all gamers together, they first must get everyone to agree on at least the fundamentals. Fundamentals, like what a fighter does with a sword. What is and isn't a "super power" or "magic." What dice should and should not be used for. That sort of thing. I'm not comfortable with this, but I can't deny that this is what needs to happen. D&D has some pretty stiff competition out there...not just from Pathfinder, 3PPs, and countless retro-clone companies, but from itself as well: older editions of the game are still being bought, sold, and traded in bookstores and all over the Internet. They have to be accommodating and cutting-edge at the same time. And if they could do that without changing anything, well, they would already be done. Nobody orders a simple turkey & swiss anymore...everyone wants gluten-free, everyone wants low-carb, everyone wants a build-your-own smorgassboard. It's nobody's fault, really, and it's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. The deli has no choice but to change its menu to keep up with the times. Sure, they can make custom orders for their favorite customers for a little while, but eventually they will have to switch suppliers or maybe get new kitchen equipment, and they simply won't be able to give you that same old sandwich anymore. When that moment comes, I can either (a) order something else, (b) stand around and complain to nobody, or (c) make my own sandwiches at home. Well, I've done the "stand around complaining to nobody" part. :) I'll probably make my own sandwiches at home for a while (until I remember how dry they were), and then I will come back and try one of those new-fangled "flat bread wraps" that all the kids are talking about. 5th Edition cannot be a BECM clone, no matter how much I want it to be. So maybe I was a bit harsh with my critique of the 5th Edition fighter. It isn't what I was expecting, it isn't what I would have designed, and it doesn't play the way I would prefer it to. But it [U]is[/U] exactly what the game needs: something for old and new gamers to rally around (provided both are willing to overlook a few things), and a showcase for the new combat mechanics. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Of Fighters and Sammiches
Top