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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8959142" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Would you say the following:A Porsche 911 GT3 has a 7 speed PDK dual-clutch transmission and a flat 6 naturally aspirated engine...except not really, because any owner can have the gearbox changed and an alternative engine put in (even if the lack of integration of the new gearbox and engine creates a mess of the 911 GT3 driving experience)...so therefore, the Porsche 911 GT3 engineers effectively have "no say."If you wouldn't say that...then why would you say the same thing about another engineering endeavor; a game?Yes, the world is filled with humans that can, if we want to reduce things down sufficiently and flatten all complexity/variability, opt-in or opt-out of literally everything (even living itself!).  But...I mean, at some point, things that are designed "have an inherent say (through that design and through the engineers/artists et al that did the design work)," right?  That goes equally for physical stuff as it does for social systems/arrangements.So where is your pivot point?  What is your purity test for "yup...I guess the system/designers do have a say" vs "nope...this is just humans opting-in/opting-out so superstructure and system constraint has no meaningful say in things."  And of course, this could be complicated further by questions around "what meaningfully constitutes say" (consciousness and free will questions), but let us just stick with what we have thus far.When do engineers/artists and their designs/creations have "functionally binding say?"My answer to that is partially in the above and partially not:When the trade-offs for opting-out yield a net worse result (or at least significantly increase the prospects of a net worse result).  Opt out of your default gearbox and engine of your Porsche 911 GT3 and you're almost certain to have an inferior experience with the vehicle.  Opt out of "play to find out" or the action resolution paradigm (or myriad other things) of Blades in the Dark (the game [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] was invoking) and you're almost certain to have an inferior experience with the vehicle (the "vehicle" in this situation being "the vehicle for play; the game").</blockquote>

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