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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 5468221" data-attributes="member: 5038">in my own experience, people did not abandon AD&D for more challenging games. They abandoned the game, because of the mechanics!  They abandoned it for some or all of the following:  ununified ability score bonuses and dice mechanics, patchwork mechanics, Vancian Magic, a lot of abstraction with AD&D hit points and armor class, lack of a decent skill system,  gamist mechanics (e.g., level drain), seemingly arbitrary mechanics (e.g., dual classing vs. multiclassing and racial limits),etc.In other words, they abandoned it for systems that gave them what they wanted, mechanically in a fantasy rpg.   And, most of the people whom I know had left with AD&D 1e or 2e, came back with 3e, because it fixed most of their perceived problems (and third party products fixing others).</blockquote>