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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HolyMan" data-source="post: 5191907" data-attributes="member: 84167">So you want to play a mage who can fight not a fighter who can cast?  Not a comparison because shocking grasp can fail meaning 0 damage and you have to be in melee range and worry about a full attack back at you. You miss with the firebolt you get to do a little damage still and your opponent has to come to you before they can attack once, maybe even giving you an AoO to boot.   Fireball is instant hit whomever is in the area, meaning no control and could hit your allies. It is lvl 3 making it that much more costly to empower and use other meta magic feats. At 5th lvl an average mage may take two fireballs (total 10d6) and must forgo all other spells he could have used that day. so if no combats for the day then he wasted the slots. But firebolt he would get to cast 9 times if he wanted (total 45d6). This is the reason fighters become obsolete.   Not taking anything away here if the situation is right both those spells would excel over firebolt.   It would only take two people to have you at 5th lvl casting multiply spells to ruin an encounter quickly. Things like Burning hands make it so you have to have the right situation (not going to happen every time) And Scorching ray can miss = 0 damage, Magic Missile only gets stronger over time you have to be 9th lvl before you can use it to maxium effect. That is another part of my distaste it max's out early.    WE need to have something as a base what do you suggest we use to see where a new spell lies in relation to others that have gone before it? I believe that is an untrue statement, you may be thinking Clerics and Druids and low level Wizards are good for at least one or two encounters but after that they are usually spent. And at first level sleep does rule but after those first two you better hope there is some fighters in the party. And find traps can a Cleric cast it in every room of a typical dungeon? I say typical but it seems here on the boards it doesn't run like that you should have between 7-8 encounters before retiring for the night.  Again you are thinking along the lines of a typical encounter and casters having full spells, then I would say yes to all the above but spells run out and a sharp sword and full plate do not.   No need for that we can work this out. I'm coming from the point of view that core is bases and all spells are made from them. The firebolt is not a fireball because it can only effect one person, you can't say it only has 5d6 max damage because a 10th lvl mage could cast up to 8 -10d6 fireballs or 16 - 5d6 firebolts so that is the same amount if damage. Just the fireballs give you more room for other spells. Now firebolt wouldn't be bad if it weren't so similar to a spell two lvls higher than it. Scorching ray is one lvl higher but with the chance to miss and not getting full effect till 11th lvl (instead of 5th), I can't see why this couldn't either be 2nd lvl or be made into a ranged touch attack?  I use to have things like complete arcane and complete divine but never used the spells within because there were better core spells out their. Now your case is a little different, being as how you have a limited spell list and about a 1/3 of each per lvl is not standard. You seem to like this inferior spell alot because you believe it is all you can get, which leads to my question: Is the only reason you wish to have the firebolt is to have some ranged capablity when needed? Because if that's the case I would say take magic missile instead lot better spell <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (I know it isn't on your list are we playing by the book?) It will also help out in game RP wise which I would find most enjoyable. HM</blockquote>

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