Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Asgorath" data-source="post: 7773594" data-attributes="member: 6921966"><p>Alternatively, what if we consider a simpler solution where there are no concurrent/nested actions because actions resolve instantly, and "if you ... you can" is a form of conditional or <a href="https://www.mathplanet.com/education/geometry/proof/if-then-statement" target="_blank">if-then statement</a> that uses the standard rules of mathematical logic. Simply put, "if you X, you can Y" means that in order for Y to happen, X must be true.</p><p></p><p>Martial Arts:</p><p></p><p>"When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn."</p><p></p><p>Here, the trigger is taking the Attack action and attacking with an unarmed strike or Monk weapon. The Attack action resolves the instant you make that attack(*), and thus the trigger happens and you now have access to a bonus action for another unarmed strike. You cannot take the bonus action until the trigger happens, i.e. you don't have the bonus action attack until you actually take the Attack action.</p><p></p><p>(*) Yes, Extra Attack complicates all of this.</p><p></p><p>Natural Explorer:</p><p></p><p>"If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace."</p><p></p><p>Here, the trigger is traveling alone, which once again resolves the instant you start traveling alone. Once you start doing that, the triggered effect is available and you can move stealthily at a normal pace. You cannot move stealthily at normal pace until the trigger happens, i.e. you have to actually start traveling alone before this can happen.</p><p></p><p>Ranger's Companion:</p><p></p><p>"If you are incapacitated or absent, the beast acts on its own, focusing on protecting you and itself."</p><p></p><p>Here, the trigger is you being incapacitated or absent. The beast will not act on its own until that trigger takes place, which again resolves the instant you become incapacitated or absent. If you are present and not incapacitated, the trigger has not happened and thus the beast will not act unless commanded to.</p><p></p><p>Stroke of Luck:</p><p></p><p>"Alternatively, if you fail an ability check, you can treat the d20 roll as a 20."</p><p></p><p>Here, the trigger is you failing an ability check. This trigger resolves the instant you fail an ability check, and thus the triggered effect of treating the roll as a 20 takes place. You cannot treat a d20 roll as a 20 until the trigger takes place.</p><p></p><p>So, back to Shield Master. Following my simple logic, the trigger of taking the Attack action by making an attack (*) resolves instantly and you now have access to a bonus action shove. This is nice and simple because there are no nested or simultaneous actions to keep track of.</p><p></p><p>(*) Yes, Extra Attack complicates all of this.</p><p></p><p>You suggest that Shield Master simply adds a shove to your Attack action. I would disagree with this assessment, and use the Gloom Stalker's Dread Ambusher ability as an example of wording that would allow this:</p><p></p><p>"If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action."</p><p></p><p>This clearly states the additional attack is part of the Attack action itself, not a bonus action. Here, the Ranger gets 3 attacks on their first turn, and 2 attacks on all subsequent turns in a combat encounter. Shield Master does not use this wording, and thus the bonus action is separate and distinct from the Attack action itself. Given that the trigger for the shove is the Attack action, surely that means you actually have to make an attack before you even have access to the bonus action shove?</p><p></p><p>Based on all of this, I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusions. If we treat each element as a distinct unit that instantly resolves, we don't have to worry about nested actions. The simple form of "if X, Y" establishes a clear logical relationship between X and Y, and using the standard rules of logic (or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_(computer_programming)" target="_blank">computer programming</a>) then in order for Y to happen X must first be true. Note that I did not say X must be completed, it must merely be true. For example, Natural Explorer's trigger is "if you are traveling alone". As soon as that trigger is true, the effect takes place (i.e. you can stealth at normal pace). Similarly, when the trigger is the Attack action, in order for that trigger to happen you must actually make an attack. This applies to Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Arts, Shield Master and so on. The game is full of these types of triggers, and in all cases, the rules use sentences of the from "if X, Y". No then, no after, simply "if X, Y".</p><p></p><p>I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but as I mentioned earlier, I think applying <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor" target="_blank">Occam's razor</a> to all of this points us at the solution I described above.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Asgorath, post: 7773594, member: 6921966"] Alternatively, what if we consider a simpler solution where there are no concurrent/nested actions because actions resolve instantly, and "if you ... you can" is a form of conditional or [URL="https://www.mathplanet.com/education/geometry/proof/if-then-statement"]if-then statement[/URL] that uses the standard rules of mathematical logic. Simply put, "if you X, you can Y" means that in order for Y to happen, X must be true. Martial Arts: "When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn." Here, the trigger is taking the Attack action and attacking with an unarmed strike or Monk weapon. The Attack action resolves the instant you make that attack(*), and thus the trigger happens and you now have access to a bonus action for another unarmed strike. You cannot take the bonus action until the trigger happens, i.e. you don't have the bonus action attack until you actually take the Attack action. (*) Yes, Extra Attack complicates all of this. Natural Explorer: "If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace." Here, the trigger is traveling alone, which once again resolves the instant you start traveling alone. Once you start doing that, the triggered effect is available and you can move stealthily at a normal pace. You cannot move stealthily at normal pace until the trigger happens, i.e. you have to actually start traveling alone before this can happen. Ranger's Companion: "If you are incapacitated or absent, the beast acts on its own, focusing on protecting you and itself." Here, the trigger is you being incapacitated or absent. The beast will not act on its own until that trigger takes place, which again resolves the instant you become incapacitated or absent. If you are present and not incapacitated, the trigger has not happened and thus the beast will not act unless commanded to. Stroke of Luck: "Alternatively, if you fail an ability check, you can treat the d20 roll as a 20." Here, the trigger is you failing an ability check. This trigger resolves the instant you fail an ability check, and thus the triggered effect of treating the roll as a 20 takes place. You cannot treat a d20 roll as a 20 until the trigger takes place. So, back to Shield Master. Following my simple logic, the trigger of taking the Attack action by making an attack (*) resolves instantly and you now have access to a bonus action shove. This is nice and simple because there are no nested or simultaneous actions to keep track of. (*) Yes, Extra Attack complicates all of this. You suggest that Shield Master simply adds a shove to your Attack action. I would disagree with this assessment, and use the Gloom Stalker's Dread Ambusher ability as an example of wording that would allow this: "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action." This clearly states the additional attack is part of the Attack action itself, not a bonus action. Here, the Ranger gets 3 attacks on their first turn, and 2 attacks on all subsequent turns in a combat encounter. Shield Master does not use this wording, and thus the bonus action is separate and distinct from the Attack action itself. Given that the trigger for the shove is the Attack action, surely that means you actually have to make an attack before you even have access to the bonus action shove? Based on all of this, I'll respectfully disagree with your conclusions. If we treat each element as a distinct unit that instantly resolves, we don't have to worry about nested actions. The simple form of "if X, Y" establishes a clear logical relationship between X and Y, and using the standard rules of logic (or [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_(computer_programming)"]computer programming[/URL]) then in order for Y to happen X must first be true. Note that I did not say X must be completed, it must merely be true. For example, Natural Explorer's trigger is "if you are traveling alone". As soon as that trigger is true, the effect takes place (i.e. you can stealth at normal pace). Similarly, when the trigger is the Attack action, in order for that trigger to happen you must actually make an attack. This applies to Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Arts, Shield Master and so on. The game is full of these types of triggers, and in all cases, the rules use sentences of the from "if X, Y". No then, no after, simply "if X, Y". I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but as I mentioned earlier, I think applying [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor"]Occam's razor[/URL] to all of this points us at the solution I described above. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated
Top