Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Asgorath" data-source="post: 7773977" data-attributes="member: 6921966">Okay, I'll extend the definition of an action to be one or more discrete elements on the timeline to avoid confusion.  I thought that was obvious from the rest of my post, I apologize.We all agree that the Attack action can be split into multiple pieces.  However, I do not see any text in the PHB that says you can declare the Attack action, and then make the attacks later.  There's a rule that says you can insert movement in between attacks.  There are triggers that are based off a single attack.  There are triggers that are based on the action as a whole.  All of this is consistent with the idea of a discretely ordered list of elements, the triggered element must simply come after all the triggering elements.  In the case of the Attack action, this is simply all of the attacks.  Evaluating the condition is very straight forward: are all the attacks in the ordered list?  If yes, you can add the triggered element.  At this point, if you still had attacks from Extra Attack left, you simply cannot add those to the ordered list, because that invalidates the triggered bonus action that is already in the list.It's the starting point for my analogy, that's all.  Why can't the Attack action be made up of N discrete elements?  The rules text clearly indicate that this is allowed.Again, no duration does not imply instantaneous.  There is no language in the PHB that talks about the duration of an action, and so I'm suggesting that the concept of duration (or lack thereof) simply does not apply to actions in general.Your turn is an ordered list of elements.  The Attack action is not separate from the attacks.  If you split your Attack action with movement, the Attack action is now two discrete elements in the ordered list.  You can think of the ordered list as literally a sequence of labelled blocks that you arrange in order.1) Move2) Attack3) Move4) Attack5) Move6) Shield Master shove7) MoveThe 2nd block is played when you make your first attack.  The 4th block is played when you make your second attack.  Assuming you only have 2 attacks from Extra Attack, the Attack action is now complete and anything that triggers from the Attack action can be played and added to the strictly ordered list that defines your turn.This only starts to get complicated and/or not make sense when you try and fit the concept of duration to each individual element on the list.  My interpretation is that duration has no meaning here, the turn is simply an ordered list of elements and that triggered elements must come after triggering elements.Right, per above, an action is one or more elements in the timeline.  The PHB clearly says you can split the Attack action into separate pieces, which implies it is now multiple distinct events on your turn (with rules about what can come between those events).It's only a problem because you're trying to define a duration for the elements.  The Attack action can be split by movement.  The Attack action is complete when all of these individual elements have been added to the list.  Consider a simple case where you don't move between attacks:1) Move2) Attack3) Move4) Shield Master shoveThe exception to the general rule is that you can move between attacks.  Thus:1) Move2) Attack3) Move4) Attack5) Move6) Shield Master shoveIn both cases, it's an ordered list of elements.  The rules state when triggered elements can be added, which is that they come after the triggering elements.  If you X, you can Y simply means that all the X elements have to come before the Y element(s).I disagree.I'm not the one arguing that there is no sequence of events on your turn and you can go back in time and change a shove from a bonus action to an action.  I'm not the one arguing that actions last as long as their effects.  I'm no longer arguing that actions are instantaneous.  I'm suggesting that action duration is irrelevant, and that the RAW fully supports your turn being a simple ordered list of elements.Again, I'm suggesting that we should simply stop trying to think about this in terms of action duration (even if the duration is zero).  My analogy of an ordered list of events does not imply anything about the in-game duration of any particular entry in that list, nor does it require any concept of duration at all.  It's just an ordered list.  "If you X, you can Y" simply means Y elements must come after all X elements.The rules say you can split your Attack action with movement.  If you do so, your Attack action is now two discrete elements in the list.  This is still perfectly consistent in my opinion.  The wording of the Attack action suggests it is not separate from the attacks themselves, and does not mention a declaration phase.Right, if we're going to get into the nitty-gritty details here, the Attack action can be made up of N discrete elements.  There are clear rules about what can come between those elements in the ordered list, namely:- Movement- Bonus actions that are triggered from a single weapon attack- Bonus actions that have no triggerWhy is this a problem?"I move over there.  I attack that Orc.  I move over to the other Orc and attack it.  I move to the third Orc and use my Shield Master shove to knock it prone."That's an ordered list of discrete elements that do not rely on us imposing a definition of action duration that isn't in the PHB.</blockquote>

Verification