Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7775427" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Ah, I see where you've gone off the rails. Okay, let's get a bit technical.</p><p></p><p>Technically, a material conditional is an if, then statement that does not imply causality. They're related truth statements of the form "if X is true, then Y is also true." The examples in the wiki article you reference (<a href="http://Causailty" target="_blank">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality</a>) is:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As you can see, these examples show that conditionals are just related truth statements. In the first, the X being true means that Y is also true, despite the fact that X has nothing to do with Y. This statement just associates truth values. The problem with this is shown in the second example, where X is not true, so it diesn't matter what Y is. Y can be anything, a true statement or false one, because there is only a trivial relationship between X and Y.</p><p></p><p>Applying the above to Shield Master and taking the if X, Y statement as a material conditional, I know that if it is true that I take the Attack action on my turn, it is also true that I may shove as a bonus action. There's a few problems with this. Firstly, if I don't take the Attack action on my turn, then I don't know if I can shove as a bonus action. X being true means Y is also true, but X being NOT true means I have no statement about the truth of Y. Secondly, all that conditional says is that If X is true at any time, then Y is also true. I can take the Attack action once, on a once or future turn, and the conditional is true -- I can shove as a bonus action any turn I want. Neither of these make any sense for game rules, so it's pretty clear it's not a material conditional but a causal statement.</p><p></p><p>We don't just have to rely on the above analysis to determine the Shield Master if X, Y is causal -- the rules tell us it is. We have the rule that bonus actions do not exist unless given by a game element. That's a causal relationship, not a related truth statement. And, since it is causal, X must precede or coincide with Y (refer to above Wiki article).</p><p></p><p>I've so far avoided the argument that, in normative English, "if, then" statements are almost always causal statements. It's only when you're in certain branches of formal logic that they aren't. I saved this for last because it's a weaker argument. Nevertheless, since the game rules are written in normative English, it's another point against reading "if, then" as a material conditional.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7775427, member: 16814"] Ah, I see where you've gone off the rails. Okay, let's get a bit technical. Technically, a material conditional is an if, then statement that does not imply causality. They're related truth statements of the form "if X is true, then Y is also true." The examples in the wiki article you reference ([URL="Causailty"]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality[/URL]) is: As you can see, these examples show that conditionals are just related truth statements. In the first, the X being true means that Y is also true, despite the fact that X has nothing to do with Y. This statement just associates truth values. The problem with this is shown in the second example, where X is not true, so it diesn't matter what Y is. Y can be anything, a true statement or false one, because there is only a trivial relationship between X and Y. Applying the above to Shield Master and taking the if X, Y statement as a material conditional, I know that if it is true that I take the Attack action on my turn, it is also true that I may shove as a bonus action. There's a few problems with this. Firstly, if I don't take the Attack action on my turn, then I don't know if I can shove as a bonus action. X being true means Y is also true, but X being NOT true means I have no statement about the truth of Y. Secondly, all that conditional says is that If X is true at any time, then Y is also true. I can take the Attack action once, on a once or future turn, and the conditional is true -- I can shove as a bonus action any turn I want. Neither of these make any sense for game rules, so it's pretty clear it's not a material conditional but a causal statement. We don't just have to rely on the above analysis to determine the Shield Master if X, Y is causal -- the rules tell us it is. We have the rule that bonus actions do not exist unless given by a game element. That's a causal relationship, not a related truth statement. And, since it is causal, X must precede or coincide with Y (refer to above Wiki article). I've so far avoided the argument that, in normative English, "if, then" statements are almost always causal statements. It's only when you're in certain branches of formal logic that they aren't. I saved this for last because it's a weaker argument. Nevertheless, since the game rules are written in normative English, it's another point against reading "if, then" as a material conditional. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Official D&D Sage Advice Compendium Updated
Top