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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7775630" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Well, I'm glad you've decided to stop beating up that strawman of "you said the Attack action is the attack!" strawman with valiant shouts of "special pleading!!" It was getting old. At this point, you're 0 for 2 on fallacy yelling. Maybe lay off a bit? Try talking? </p><p></p><p>Well, in order, I do, and I don't, exactly.</p><p></p><p>When I chose an action, I do what that action says. For the Attack action, it says I make an attack. There aren't extra decision steps, here, so if I take the Attack action the only thing that happens is that I make an attack. This is what "doing what it says on the tin" means. Actions are self contained units of doing things, not open ended decision trees.</p><p></p><p>Does the Attack action get more complicated with Extra Attack? Yes, a bit. Now, when I take the Attack action, I make more than one attack (up to my EA limit). The rules are pretty clear that this is what changes. Extra Attack doesn't have any language that changes or adds other things to the Attack action or how it works. The Attack action otherwise works exactly the same for one attack as it does for two.</p><p></p><p>But, wait, you say, what about the moving between attacks! Glad you asked. We have one more rule that isn't Extra Attack but is triggered by it, and it says that if you do make more than one attack with the Attack action, you can use your Move between attacks. Neato! But, afain, this otherwuse doesn't alter how the Attack action works, and it doesn't add other options.</p><p></p><p>So, to your questions, my reasoning is unaltered by your confusion about it. The Attack action does what it says, <u>no more and no less</u>. Yes, if you have EA, you truvially make attacks later in your turn from the first, but all you're allowed to do between attacks is move.</p><p></p><p>You resolve it when you take the Attack action, because taking that action limits you to what that action says to do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Attack action enables the attacks, but it doesn't have any "time" itself. You say "Bob the Fighter takes the Attack action with Ecmxtra Attack!" Cool. We read Attack action. It says to make attacks, so Bob's player that until Bob runs out of allowed attacks. Between thise attacks, Bob can move up to the limit if his Move. That's it, because that's all that the Attack action says on the tin.</p><p></p><p>Um, no. Show me that rule text.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The bolded part is not on the tin. You brought that with you. That's the problem you keep having, you bring baggage.</p><p></p><p>Nope. When I take the Attack action, I do what it says. That's make an attack. If you wanted to do something else, you shouldn't pick the Attack action.</p><p></p><p>What you're doing here is bringing in baggage. That baggage is some complicated timing stack like MtG where there's phases and action declarations ho on a stack to be resolved LIFO, but this doesn't exist in 5e. It's nowhere in the rules, so you're adding it to imagined blank spaces. </p><p></p><p>The 5e rules work super well if read cleanly, without baggage. Unfortunately, that means that Shield Master bonus action shoves come after the Attack action resolves. Fortunately, you can talk with your table and fashion a house rule to make it more to your taste. This is super awesome, and exactly what I've done.</p><p></p><p>Only one of us is writing in things. Protip: it's you. The reason you think I'm adding things is because I'm wiping off what you've crayoned in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7775630, member: 16814"] Well, I'm glad you've decided to stop beating up that strawman of "you said the Attack action is the attack!" strawman with valiant shouts of "special pleading!!" It was getting old. At this point, you're 0 for 2 on fallacy yelling. Maybe lay off a bit? Try talking? Well, in order, I do, and I don't, exactly. When I chose an action, I do what that action says. For the Attack action, it says I make an attack. There aren't extra decision steps, here, so if I take the Attack action the only thing that happens is that I make an attack. This is what "doing what it says on the tin" means. Actions are self contained units of doing things, not open ended decision trees. Does the Attack action get more complicated with Extra Attack? Yes, a bit. Now, when I take the Attack action, I make more than one attack (up to my EA limit). The rules are pretty clear that this is what changes. Extra Attack doesn't have any language that changes or adds other things to the Attack action or how it works. The Attack action otherwise works exactly the same for one attack as it does for two. But, wait, you say, what about the moving between attacks! Glad you asked. We have one more rule that isn't Extra Attack but is triggered by it, and it says that if you do make more than one attack with the Attack action, you can use your Move between attacks. Neato! But, afain, this otherwuse doesn't alter how the Attack action works, and it doesn't add other options. So, to your questions, my reasoning is unaltered by your confusion about it. The Attack action does what it says, [u]no more and no less[/u]. Yes, if you have EA, you truvially make attacks later in your turn from the first, but all you're allowed to do between attacks is move. You resolve it when you take the Attack action, because taking that action limits you to what that action says to do. The Attack action enables the attacks, but it doesn't have any "time" itself. You say "Bob the Fighter takes the Attack action with Ecmxtra Attack!" Cool. We read Attack action. It says to make attacks, so Bob's player that until Bob runs out of allowed attacks. Between thise attacks, Bob can move up to the limit if his Move. That's it, because that's all that the Attack action says on the tin. Um, no. Show me that rule text. The bolded part is not on the tin. You brought that with you. That's the problem you keep having, you bring baggage. Nope. When I take the Attack action, I do what it says. That's make an attack. If you wanted to do something else, you shouldn't pick the Attack action. What you're doing here is bringing in baggage. That baggage is some complicated timing stack like MtG where there's phases and action declarations ho on a stack to be resolved LIFO, but this doesn't exist in 5e. It's nowhere in the rules, so you're adding it to imagined blank spaces. The 5e rules work super well if read cleanly, without baggage. Unfortunately, that means that Shield Master bonus action shoves come after the Attack action resolves. Fortunately, you can talk with your table and fashion a house rule to make it more to your taste. This is super awesome, and exactly what I've done. Only one of us is writing in things. Protip: it's you. The reason you think I'm adding things is because I'm wiping off what you've crayoned in. [/QUOTE]
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