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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8156216" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>[USER=72555]@NotAYakk[/USER] Aha! I remembered another one from earlier in my 5e experience -- the <strong>manticore</strong>, which is CR 3 in the MM.</p><p></p><p>It acted as a sort of "sin eater" figure for a cult, with its usual lurking spot being on a cliffside ledge where it looked down at repentant figures bearing tribute for its "wisdom" (which usually consisted of dishing out blackmail material on the supplicant's rivals who previously visited the manticore). The 3rd level PCs basically said "screw that noise" mid-conversation and attacked. I thought I played the manticore's tactics well enough, and it was accompanied by many <strong>cultists</strong>, but the manticore went down really hard in two rounds to focus fire. It didn't feel really threatening. IIRC the players had one or two encounters previously exploring the canyon environment, so they weren't fresh, but they weren't badly tapped either.</p><p></p><p>Looking at the maths now, I can see why...</p><p></p><p><strong>Manticore, Defensive CR = 1/2</strong></p><p>68 HP starts it at CR 1/2</p><p>AC 14 is about consistent with target AC 13 for CR 1/2, so no change</p><p></p><p><strong>Manticore, Offensive CR = 3</strong></p><p>DPR 22.5 (assuming tail spikes) starts it at CR 3</p><p>Attack bonus +5 is about consistent with target +6 for CR 3, so no change</p><p></p><p><strong>Manticore, Total CR = (1/2 + 3) / 2 = 1.75</strong></p><p>So its actual rounded-up CR is 2.</p><p></p><p>While I understand labeling it as CR 3 because flight is supposed to make it a suitable challenge for when spells like <em>levitation </em>and<em> spider climb </em>become available to 3rd level PCs, what I noticed was the big disparity between its poor defenses and decent offenses. With all the subclass features coming online at 3rd level, there's a spike in PC damage that the really weak defenses of the manticore couldn't keep pace with.</p><p></p><p>The CR being off by 1 probably wouldn't have been so noticeable in my play experience if it had a better Defensive CR.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 8156216, member: 20323"] [USER=72555]@NotAYakk[/USER] Aha! I remembered another one from earlier in my 5e experience -- the [B]manticore[/B], which is CR 3 in the MM. It acted as a sort of "sin eater" figure for a cult, with its usual lurking spot being on a cliffside ledge where it looked down at repentant figures bearing tribute for its "wisdom" (which usually consisted of dishing out blackmail material on the supplicant's rivals who previously visited the manticore). The 3rd level PCs basically said "screw that noise" mid-conversation and attacked. I thought I played the manticore's tactics well enough, and it was accompanied by many [B]cultists[/B], but the manticore went down really hard in two rounds to focus fire. It didn't feel really threatening. IIRC the players had one or two encounters previously exploring the canyon environment, so they weren't fresh, but they weren't badly tapped either. Looking at the maths now, I can see why... [B]Manticore, Defensive CR = 1/2[/B] 68 HP starts it at CR 1/2 AC 14 is about consistent with target AC 13 for CR 1/2, so no change [B]Manticore, Offensive CR = 3[/B] DPR 22.5 (assuming tail spikes) starts it at CR 3 Attack bonus +5 is about consistent with target +6 for CR 3, so no change [B]Manticore, Total CR = (1/2 + 3) / 2 = 1.75[/B] So its actual rounded-up CR is 2. While I understand labeling it as CR 3 because flight is supposed to make it a suitable challenge for when spells like [I]levitation [/I]and[I] spider climb [/I]become available to 3rd level PCs, what I noticed was the big disparity between its poor defenses and decent offenses. With all the subclass features coming online at 3rd level, there's a spike in PC damage that the really weak defenses of the manticore couldn't keep pace with. The CR being off by 1 probably wouldn't have been so noticeable in my play experience if it had a better Defensive CR. [/QUOTE]
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