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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nikchick" data-source="post: 2785999" data-attributes="member: 344">Joe and a few others seem to have been arguing two points, that there's "core d20"  or "real D20" (which we've been informed our D20 materials aren't considered) and that the big list of WotC products Joe posted didn't represent the "obvious products that have been done before" stuff that Pramas was referring to.  I was hitting on both of those points in one post, not at all trying to say that "been done before" is interchangeable with "not D20 support."Pramas has said that we (we being D20 publishers in general, not just GR) are doing things like licensed products and products that are apparently considered "niche" because the obvious stuff has been done to death.  In the not too distant past people overwhelmingly cried out "Who needs five different dwarf/fighter/feat books?!" and the D20 publishers listened and diversified and looked for interesting ways to stretch boundaries and give people interesting stuff. Now people say "Those weird things aren't 'core'/'real'/D&D enough," seeming to be asking for those very same standard, obvious things that they'd been protesting the surplus of before.  Do they want more, or don't they?  We've done products of both stripes this year, and I'm not getting any kind of clear message from the market that one thing IS actually desired. The Advanced series? That's as generic, "core", and broadly applicable as we get. Yet there's no clear indicator that more of those books are indeed what people want.  They're not overwhelmingly better than anything else, including Thieves World or Mythic Vistas.  I'm only being a little sarcastic and rest assured I'm not angry. I'm just protesting the idea that there's some clear message that players want X and if only companies would listen up and give it to them like WotC does (as if WotC is doing anything different from the top D20 producers) things would be all fine and good.  Joe got my scorning voice because I feel the products he was listing off either fell into the "done already" or "note core support" categories, but only after he pulled out his own scorning that Pramas used the word struggle (as in "struggling to come up with compelling new ideas, as we can see from the surplus of concepts that fall into the 'obvious books that have been done to several times over' category.").  And if the bottom line is that WotC is king of us all and whatever they do can't be compared to what D20 publishers are doing, like Eberron getting a pass as "core enough" but Black Company or Theives' World not just by virtue of the fact that they're WotC, the publishers of Official Dungeons and Dragons, why even talk about what they're doing in relation to the question of whether the OGL is working or not...</blockquote>

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