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<blockquote data-quote="pawsplay" data-source="post: 5180560" data-attributes="member: 15538">While the +5 item and the maxed ranks is reasonable, I would not think it's assumed at 6th level. I'm not even sure what premade items exist grant a Spot bonus.But to succeed, you first have to be close enough.A four point advantage in the ogre mage's favor is pretty good.Why would an ogre mage who is invisible do anything OTHER than stroll casually right into the middle of the party, not adjacent to the rogue with the maxed out Listen skill, but instead adjacent at an unknown location next to the easily grappled wizard who does not have a maxed out Listen skill?The mage would not purposefully include party members in the area of glitterdust, which means the ogre mage can purposefully stand near the party when it's safe to do so.Now imagine the ogre mage readying cone of cold to cast if the mage casts any spell at all. Hilarity ensues. No glitterdust, possibly no mage, no full attack from the fighter. Maybe the rogue can flank him.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pawsplay, post: 5180560, member: 15538"] While the +5 item and the maxed ranks is reasonable, I would not think it's assumed at 6th level. I'm not even sure what premade items exist grant a Spot bonus. But to succeed, you first have to be close enough. A four point advantage in the ogre mage's favor is pretty good. Why would an ogre mage who is invisible do anything OTHER than stroll casually right into the middle of the party, not adjacent to the rogue with the maxed out Listen skill, but instead adjacent at an unknown location next to the easily grappled wizard who does not have a maxed out Listen skill? The mage would not purposefully include party members in the area of glitterdust, which means the ogre mage can purposefully stand near the party when it's safe to do so. Now imagine the ogre mage readying cone of cold to cast if the mage casts any spell at all. Hilarity ensues. No glitterdust, possibly no mage, no full attack from the fighter. Maybe the rogue can flank him. [/QUOTE]

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