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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1318388" data-attributes="member: 5777">1) more damage yes, but is it enough more damage to put up with the rest of the negatives? perhaps2) reach is very nice sure, but everyone can get it. Most fighter types get it in one way or another or pick up a way to avoid it. If they do neither then generaly they will have a problem at higher levels. Everyone uses tactics if they want to stay alive.3) At lower levels the doubling means that the ac's fall in line and sometimes even favor the nonogre. That is easy enough to cover my whole point, saying that it is a minor penalty when at these levels it can shift away from you, 'he's the king of ac' means that you are ignoring the point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> at least imnsho of course4) since there are a lot of fractions it needs to be said. I could compare at levels where they have the biggest emphasis on my point, you can compare at levels that have the largest on yours. Using the fractions means nearly the same thing at all levels and is easier to compare. some levels they will mean a great deal, others not so much. I am trying to list all of the advantages and disadvantages. Please dont just ignore things because they only matter half of the time, that half of the time happens half of the time <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />5) you missed noting several, and dismissed others as meaningless even though they do matter. How often do you make listen checks? Nearly every battle while you are sneaking through a dungeon, just about all of the time when you need to notice something. At least that is how it is run in every campaign I've been in.. maybe in some you dont need listen, that is a bit harsh though I would think.6) so you agree that some levels are better to compare at than others for both sides of the arguement? good then, sounds like it is fairly equal at this one level disparity then <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />7) and I can tell you from my experience that at +1 they are perfectly fine and balanced.. lol.. hope that helps you in your decision making or whatever.. at least as much as your experience helps me in mine.In battles against the pc's certain things win out more than others. NPC's are generally not reused, especially when they are made to be hulking brutes. The whole reason there are LA's is that some powers mean more to pc's than others. NPC's can generaly ignore the whole fact that skills are lower, can ignore the fact that certain saves are worse, can ignore the loss of a hd here and there. Mainly because these things will matter little to it as it isnt meant to overcome these things. PC's are different however, they are expected to meet certain challenges.You have said that with a human barb vs the halfogre barb that the half ogre will do more damage. That is fine, easily proven, though not true at every level.You have said that the bonuses out weight the inherant penalties. Perhaps, I am assuming you include the +1 LA in the penalties.You have also said that the halfogre is just plain better at being the barb than a human. However, I disagree with at least some of these points. Just because race XXXX is more suited to job YYYY does not mean that race is unbalanced. The halfogre is only good at one thing, by your own admission. So how much better should he be at what he does than someone else who could do any job equally well? or someone who is bad at that job?This guy is only a fighter type. At the same time not very good at being either a paladin or a ranger. This limits him down to fighter or barbarian.At the end of the day this guy has given up a full level to gain his bonuses, this is no different than someone specializing heavily in one combat trick, being very good at it, and not good at anything else.With all of that he SHOULD be better at being a fighter type than someone else who has lots of options. But even with that should hanging over his head he still doesnt beat out the other guys by all that much.So he falls way behind in lots of areas, only has one area he can go into, if he tries he can be very good at this area.. and you are saying that because he is a specialist he should be penalized again? Do you make specialty wizards in your campaign delay their spellcasting like sorcerers? why not? same thing.Lets look at a level 13 case (chosen at random)16, 10, 16, 12, 12, 12 = 34 point buy, correct?human barbarian 1313d12 + 39 = avg 129BAB 13str 19 (+3), dex 10, con 16 (+3), wis 12 (+1), int 12 (+1), cha 12 (+1)F +8 ((+3)), R +4 ((+0)), W +4 ((+1))Abilities of a 13th level barbskill points 96, max ranks 16halfogre barb 1111d12 + 44 = 121BAB 11str 24 (+6), dex 8 (-1), con 18 (+4), wis 12 (+1), int 10, cha 10F +7 ((+4)), R+3 ((-1)), W+3 ((+1))Abilities of a 11th level barbskill points 56, max ranks 14the half ogre loses 1 rage/day, +1 trap sense, DR 1/-, 2 points of BAB, 2 hd, two points of reflex save, one point of will save, 2 max ranks in skills, 40 skill points, 1 stat point, 1 feat (from human)Now this isnt the largest desparity, nor the smallest I would think. But all in all if you are looking for a more rounded character who can stick things out more and has more options you will go with the human. If you are going for someone that can hit harder but takes a hit you go with the halfogre. In this comparison though the halfogre just gives up too much. 40 skill points has to strike someone as being a lot. The extra point of dr plus the extra hp makes the human stay in the fight much longer. Extra rage in a day means that the human is less likely to be caught without one. 2 points of BAB qualifies for feats later, less useful for feats that require bab (power attacking with the two handed weapon catches the human up on damage to at least some degree).I know people will weight in on both sides. I've given my reasons and I stand behind them for why the half ogre should be +1. Like I've said though, if you feel that he still needs something else to take him down a notch (poor guy) then keep him +1 and give him a single giant racial hd. That has to be punishment enough. Already his specialization has cost him double. In some campaigns it is worth it, in others it would be laughed out of the room.Notice in the above I didnt even min/max anything. both could be made better or worse, especially in their various specialties. I tried to keep them as interesting and widespread as possible. However, making the human more widespread and easy to use is much easier than the halfogre, he just doesnt have the options.</blockquote>

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