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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1320111" data-attributes="member: 5777">Taken from my previous post:Lets look at a level 13 case (chosen at random)16, 10, 16, 12, 12, 12 = 34 point buy, correct?human barbarian 1313d12 + 39 = avg 129BAB 13str 19 (+4), dex 10, con 16 (+3), wis 12 (+1), int 12 (+1), cha 12 (+1)F +8 ((+3)), R +4 ((+0)), W +4 ((+1))Abilities of a 13th level barbskill points 96, max ranks 16, +1 feathalfogre barb 1111d12 + 44 = 121BAB 11str 24 (+7), dex 8 (-1), con 18 (+4), wis 12 (+1), int 10, cha 10F +7 ((+4)), R+3 ((-1)), W+3 ((+1))Abilities of a 11th level barbskill points 56, max ranks 14Orc barb 1313d12 +39 = avg 129BAB 13str 23 (+6), dex 10, con 16 (+3), wis 10, int 10, cha 10 F +8 ((+3)), R +4 ((+0)), W +4 ((+0))Abilities of a 13th level barbskill points 64, max rank 16So the orc has 8 more avg hp, better bab, only missing 1 point of str (which will be caught up some levels, surpassed in others with rage), better reflex save, the extra two levels of barb abilities, 8 more skill points, 2 higher ranks.which for the halfogre turns into reach, +4 natural armor and thats it.So does reach and +4 natural armor equal 8hp, 2 BAB, +2 reflex, 2 levels of class abilities, 8 skill points, 2 higher max ranks?This is at the +2 LA. These totals just dont add up, hence my concern over +2 just being too weak, and if you want to go this route to instead use +1 LA and one giant hd.Personally, I equate reach to effectively one feat, the natural armor could be argued to be worth up to two feats (it all depends on how you look at it, and I think that the dodge feat should grant a +1 anytime you arent denied your dex bonus, not just to one target.. saves on bookkeeping, and frustrates new players much less) so one feat for the +1, and another feat to upgrade it to +4.. I say it that way because it isnt worth 3 feats. And inertial armor is only 1 feat, more or less. So you could say, one feat for inerial armor like feat, one more to change it to a different bonus type.So 3 feats.At LA +1 the halfogre loses 4hp, 1 BAB, +1 reflex, 1 level of class abilities, 4 skill points, 1 higher skill max ranks.Since weapon focus is +1, but is only good for one weapon +1 BAB is effectively one feat. The hp wander around so much as to be a wash more or less. +1 reflex is half of a feat. 4 skill points? hard to call, but it is sortof like one feat with +2/+2 so one feat. One level of class abilities? usually class abilities are the equivalent or better than a feat. 1 higher max rank for all skills? this is impossible to determine, 5% better chance to succeed at a skill, this is a constant throughout their carear.so a total of something around 3 feats as well. A little give or take here and there, but I would prefer to not say 3.5 feats <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />At lower levels it could be that reach is too strong, although it is possible to have a spiked chain at level 1 which does exactly the same thing with reach, and you still only get one AOO whether your reach is 10' or 20'. At higher levels most creatures have reach anyway, can bypass your reach fairly easily, use range attacks, or can use tactics to negate your reach in some way, so it is a fairly minor but nice benefit.I still contend that the halfogre is effectively fine at +1. He is good at being a melee hog, but nothing else. Good trade off, and most dm's should be able to use this in ways that dont matter. If they are a bit hesitant of that then setting the halfogres max starting str to 20 or 22 fixes just about all of the rest of the problems, sure it is an artificial and somewhat odd cap, but if it is needed for a dm's peice of mind then sure. However, +2 LA is just too big of a hit, as shown above.</blockquote>

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