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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1320204" data-attributes="member: 5777">ElricXXX person spells are effectively a wash at low levels and a penalty at high levels, that was stated earlier.same stats were chosen for everyone to compare as closely as possible, if you change the stats for each you merely move around the points each time and help to confuse the issue.Reach is effectively a feat, a character can already get a 10' reach with a weapon that doesnt take a feat and also have a 5' reach weapon at the ready, plus have a buckler on, they will get the AOO from the 10' weapon, can drop it as a free action, and go about combat as normal.. without even a feat expenditure. As I also stated, at higher levels it is almost a nonissue. Large size has both advantages and disadvantages. If you can maximise the advantages through feat use good. It means you are specializing even further. makes you worse at other things, ahh balance.. nice.. most of the things you mention are incredibly difficult to do against nonhumanoid races anyway, giving a pc the ability to actually do them at higher levels is a nice change.. so far this looks better and better.The orc daylight penalties are only effective less than half of the time at worst and almost never at best. It is only a -1 penalty, and there is a cheap 1k magical item that negates this penalty, although it does impose a slight penalty to spot.Yes, the fighter sucks, a lot. A whole lot. Huge suckage. Gigantic. I could keep going but I think you get the point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> I've always made my stance clear on the fighter, and it is that as written he sucks. I've always given him spot and sense motive as skills on his skill list and upped his feats to one every level. This puts him more on par with others. Oh yeah, core fighter sucks, in case I didnt say it enough earlier..lol.. if you like I can give you a link to at least one of the threads that discusses it.BAB needs to go up, the higher it is the sooner you can qualify for high level feats, use your power attack to greater effect, use expertise when needed, get multiple attacks (now there is a big one, neutrilizes the damage differential), and can be used for all of those combat manuevers you were talking about earlier.5 rages per day, 10, 20.. entirely campaign dependent on how many are needed per day. Therefore we have to count raw numbers as the great equilizer. If you never need more than 1 rage in a given day then in your campaign wizards and sorcerers must be the end all and be all of everything. After all, they dont have to worry about resources. Which is their biggest limitation. Multiple fights in a day is where the fighter types shine. Also, if you use few to none then it ruins cool feats like the one that gives you more rages in a day. Perhaps he could even take a feat that burns rages in a day like clerics burn turning attempts? who knows.. so, again, we have to go by the raw numbers.You get DR sooner and better without the LA, that extra 1 point of DR could mean 20+ hp in a given day.. unless you only have one encounter per day with one guy.. and then maybe it'll be something like 5.. or if you have 6 encounters with a few dozen lower level guys it may wind up being hundreds.. mmm.. good to have that higher drI am not sure where you are getting your numbers though.. as you increase in levels it almost invariably takes more hits to kill you. So the more hp you have the more hits it takes. I appreciate you working out some of them here, but I do think that they arent quite relevant <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> I simply skipped the hp differential as unimportant, a difference of 8 hp is nice (almost 3 toughness feats.. oh dont get me started on toughness.. bah) but we were looking for bigger and badder things here.Your next statement about feats though.. so you are trying to say that more feats is good.. and even though the human has 1 1/3 more feats this doesnt matter? I am confused.. are feats good or not? do they help you or not? can you use these feats to help overcome some/most of the above things you said make the halfogre great? sure, one at a time only of course, but still, it is there.At that early level? you mean when he is one hit closer to being dead when at full hp than an equivalent character? Making it +2 makes him worthless at low levels.. and as my comparison above, still way behind at higher levels.. for the human vs halfogre.. 40 skill points???????? 40!!! this has to be significant somewhere in your calculations, it just has to be!About your +hp thing not really sure what you are talking about, but then I changed toughness in my games to be +1hp/hd and goes up as you do. It has been really nice since I almost had one character take it! much better than before when it was considered a punishment.More about the hp.. yes.. it is true, eventually the hp will increase to the point where they are equal. At least for the half-ogre vs the human. how about halfogre vs dwarf? no? you mean the dwarf will always be ahead.. cool! how about the gnome? you mean with the gnome their ac's are about equal as well? hmm.. something is obviously wrong.. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />The halfogre does go through shifts where he is good, bad, and ugly. But that is just how the system works, some characters will be more efficient at whatever they do than others. Some races work better at certain things than others. This is just how it goes. We have to look past that superficial potential in each and see where everything lies.I think that my comparison above still holds. It only deals in numbers, I tried the approach of converting things to feats.. this of course is mostly nonesense but it does help show a little something, it just cant be taken completely seriously. I would've compared with dwarves but then people would just be complaining about how powerful the dwarf is anyway <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> so humans it was.40 skill points? ahead in hp until level 20? missing two levels of ability? lower saves, missed a stat point, later feats.. all in all at +2 they just arent worth it.. sure if you min/max a bit (by changing around the stats) you can make him incredibly good at one thing. Bet you can guess what it is because he doesnt have any other options.People say that the fighter is a good class because it has so many options. This guy has about 0 options. So even while I believe that the fighter sucks I can still use this comparison. The ogre is the melee specialist, incredibly so. In so doing he can do nothing else. If you put him at +2 he is not only 'not the best' at his specialty, but he also falls so far behind in anything else as to be almost useless most of the time. Keeping skills that are important at max rank is incredibly important.. that extra 10% chance of success could be the difference between life and death for at least one party member. This has to be taken into account.. 40 skill points.. that right there should shock someone.. hopefully.. anyone? shocked? 40????</blockquote>

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